Cummins will not start after a fuel filter change

[KrazyKarl02]

Last night I was watching some TV, when my neighbor (Rod Ryan) came over and knocked on my door. He needed help because his Dodge 2500 24 valve cummins would not start. I went over and here is what he had done.

He changed the fuel filter, then went to start his truck, it ran for a few seconds and died. He tried restarting and nothing. He opened the fuel filter housing and found it had no diesel in it. He poured diesel into it. Put the cap back on and tried to start it again. It would not start, not even a pop. This is when he got me.

I took my fuel pressure gauge over, which has a vent button on it. I put the gauge on the schrader (spelling) after the filter and had him try to crank. No pressure built up at all. I had him crank for like 30 seconds with the vent open, no diesel came out at all.

I then started looking for fuses, etc... I always thought the Cummins had a manual lift pump on the block and then the injector pump. What I found was a small electric fuel pump just before the filter. The fuse panels and relays were labled with the most generic labels ever (such labels as "Engine" "Ignition FD" "I.O.D." and "Fuel System Relay")

I then read his owner's manual. It does not clarify what the fuses do. His owners manual did say that after changing a fuel filter, put the truck in the on position and the electric fuel pump will run for 25 seconds. If more air is in the line than this, a manual fuel purge must be performed. It also said to consult the maintenance manual on how to do a manual fuel purge.

So here are my questions:

1) How do you perform a manual fuel purge on this truck, I know some vehicles require a certain amount of gas to prime the pump, the truck has 3/4 of a tank, I would think that is enough

2) What fuse/relay controls the electric lift pump?

3) Should I see pressure after the lift pump, if so how much?

4) Any other advice on starting this truck?

[StevenAg03]

Last night I was watching some TV, when my neighbor (Rod Ryan) came over and knocked on my door. He needed help because his Dodge 2500 24 valve cummins would not start. I went over and here is what he had done.

He changed the fuel filter, then went to start his truck, it ran for a few seconds and died. He tried restarting and nothing. He opened the fuel filter housing and found it had no diesel in it. He poured diesel into it. Put the cap back on and tried to start it again. It would not start, not even a pop. This is when he got me.

I took my fuel pressure gauge over, which has a vent button on it. I put the gauge on the schrader (spelling) after the filter and had him try to crank. No pressure built up at all. I had him crank for like 30 seconds with the vent open, no diesel came out at all.

I then started looking for fuses, etc... I always thought the Cummins had a manual lift pump on the block and then the injector pump. What I found was a small electric fuel pump just before the filter. The fuse panels and relays were labled with the most generic labels ever (such labels as "Engine" "Ignition FD" "I.O.D." and "Fuel System Relay")

I then read his owner's manual. It does not clarify what the fuses do. His owners manual did say that after changing a fuel filter, put the truck in the on position and the electric fuel pump will run for 25 seconds. If more air is in the line than this, a manual fuel purge must be performed. It also said to consult the maintenance manual on how to do a manual fuel purge.

So here are my questions:

1) How do you perform a manual fuel purge on this truck, I know some vehicles require a certain amount of gas to prime the pump, the truck has 3/4 of a tank, I would think that is enough

if the electric fuel pump is working correctly, you should be able to hear it when you turn the key to the on position. if you just barely crank the truck (just trying to turn it over) the pump should run for several seconds, 15-20 maybe. this will fill the filter bowl. next thing you have to do is crack the injectors at the block. im not sure on the 3rd gen trucks(2003+), but i only crack 1, 3, and 5 on my 2nd gen(1998-2002) with a 3/4" wrench (shorty wrench for the last one). then turn the truck over until there is fuel coming out of the injectors. be careful not to burn up the starter doing this. once they have fuel out of them, tighten them back up, and it should start no problem.

all this is assuming that the fuel pump is working properly.


2) What fuse/relay controls the electric lift pump?


dont know on this one. however, as i said above, you should be able to hear the pump come on for a split second when you turn the key on.



3) Should I see pressure after the lift pump, if so how much?

depending on the year i believe. with just the stock lift pump, mine was running about 11-12 at idle. it would build up to about 15 with the crank and the pump run for several seconds.


4) Any other advice on starting this truck?

there is no need to constantly crank the truck if the filter bowl is not filling up. the injection pump may be sucking all the fuel out of it from the constant cranking and you will get nowhere. depending on the year, the lift pumps are known for failure. you can replace it with another factory one from the local parts store, but they are only so good. i replaced mine and added a Holley Blue pusher pump. i know scott added a FASS system to his as well as Robbie. Kopecki will tell you the factory stuff is just fine, but i think his truck is an anomaly since the auto trans has lasted as long as it has.

[jerryg79]

Isnt a manual purge just cranking it while the pushing the schraeder valve to let the air out of the system? Crank till fuel comes out?

[StevenAg03]

Isnt a manual purge just cranking it while the pushing the schraeder valve to let the air out of the system? Crank till fuel comes out?

not so much...

i have noticed, when changing fuel filters, if i let the fuel completly drain from the bowl then i have to purge the system all the way to the injectors. if i just drain it enough to get the filter out, it will crank back up on its own.

[KrazyKarl02]

Any idea where the fuel pump fuse and relay are? I would like to check those before I take the pump off.

[KrazyKarl02]

Also, is it possible that the fuel pump was broke before the filter change and the injector pump was just sucking through the pump?

[StevenAg03]

Any idea where the fuel pump fuse and relay are? I would like to check those before I take the pump off.

i will do some digging. what year is the truck?



Also, is it possible that the fuel pump was broke before the filter change and the injector pump was just sucking through the pump?

absolutly. this is the number one cause of injection pump failure in the 2nd gens. where there any check engine lights or trouble codes?

[KrazyKarl02]

Not sure of the year, it is a 24 valve.

[Eckert]

Not sure of the year, it is a 24 valve.

you have narrowed the truck down between 98-07.

if it is a 03-05, the fuel pump is on the back of the fuel filter housing. which is what i think your saying. mine went out about 6 months ago. its a common problem. dodges' solution was to relocate the pump to the tank. which is a $365 fix. goodluck finding a OEM pump to replace it. if i was your buddy, and had the money, i would just look into buying a aftermarket fuel pump, raptor, airdog, fass, etc. the 3rd gens wont run if the lift pump is bad.

2nd gens however will. but if the lift pump has been out and the truck has been running solely on the injection pump. there is a good chance he might be forking over $2000 to get this fixed.

when in doubt, bust out some ether.

[KrazyKarl02]

The fuel pump is right behind the fuel filter. The truck is a few years old, I would say in the 98 to 04 range. It is not the newer body style like Jerry's.

[StevenAg03]

if it is older then Jerry's body style then it is a 98.5-02.

there should be a fuel pump relay in the power distribution box under the hood.

im not sure if this link still works, but if it does, it is the service manual for 2001 dodge. HERE (http://www.mediafire.com/?0ud3aym1say) i cant get to it from work so im not sure if it still works.

if the truck is older (98.5-00) some stuff may be slightly different, but basically the same.

[Doug Krebs]

The radio station DJ Rod Ryan??

***!:laughing:

[BroncoJo]

when in doubt, bust out some ether.

Try that first,

[Reckless]

your suppost to cycle the iginition several times for 5-10 seconds, itll purge then

[StevenAg03]

your suppost to cycle the iginition several times for 5-10 seconds, itll purge then

this does not mean to crank on it for 5-10 seconds. all you have to do is turn the engine over and the pump (if its working correctly) will run for an extended period.

[Reckless]

just turn to run and off dont crank engine over or ya have to start all over again

[Seth]

I would make sure there is no air in the system first. Cranking it after he changed filter without priming it prob got air in system, and you have to eliminate that before it will run. Pour diesel in filter housing, turn keey to on postion a few times, and maybe crack injectors.

[StevenAg03]

Pour diesel in filter housing, turn keey to on postion a few times, and maybe crack injectors.

pouring diesel in the housing will do no good if the lift pump isnt working. what yall dont seem to be getting is the fact that just turning the key to on will run the lift pump all of a fraction of a second. nowhere near enough time to refill the fuel system. you have to turn the key to the start position until it starts to turn over and let off. once you have done this a couple times, crack the injectors and crank on it. once fuel is to the injectors, close them and she will run like normal...

[Graystroke]

I crack the injectors all the time. usally the lift pumps will just leak after you crack the seal to try and prime by hand. I just fill the filter up, crack the injectors, and crank. while cranking and after fuel starts spitting out start tightening and then it will start to run.
just out of curiousity, why does a cumins need a electric lift pump? Is it b/c of the distance to the tank? or is the injector pump not that strong. Tractors never have one...granted they are usually kinda gravity feed. The mack doesn't have one, neither does the dozer.

[Reckless]

Fuel filter change procedure.

1) turn the yellow water seperator valve and let everything drain out. (i like to extend the hose to reach bucket for less mess)

2) get 1 1/8" socket and unscrew the filter lid, this will also help drain fuel out faster

3) take out old filter AND o-ring

4) wipe out the inside if necassary (but you shouldnt need to do it, unless there is a ton of gunk in there, IMO risk for getting lint in the container)

5) stick on new filter AND o-ring

6) lube the o-ring

7) stick it back in the canister

8) turn the seperator valve back to normal

9) twist the fuel filter cab back on snug (or i believe to 24 Ft Lbs)

10) turn the key a couple times (bump start the engine this get the pump goin longer)

11) and start that sucker up, easy as pie

[CheapJeep]

pouring diesel in the housing will do no good if the lift pump isnt working. what yall dont seem to be getting is the fact that just turning the key to on will run the lift pump all of a fraction of a second. nowhere near enough time to refill the fuel system. you have to turn the key to the start position until it starts to turn over and let off. once you have done this a couple times, crack the injectors and crank on it. once fuel is to the injectors, close them and she will run like normal...

Exactly...

From what you said Karl it sounds like the lift pump went out although some 2nd gen 24v's will run solely on the injection pump (which will burn up it up). I upgraded to a FASS lift pump and FP gauge because of this problem with 2nd gen's so I haven't had to deal with this problem but it sounds like the culprit.

[KrazyKarl02]

Yeah, I am pretty sure the lift pump is crap. Rod Ryan had a previous engagement last night, so I did not do anything else with it. I will tell him about the lift pump, from there it is up to him to decide weather he wants to change it or take it to a shop.

[StevenAg03]

just out of curiousity, why does a cumins need a electric lift pump? Is it b/c of the distance to the tank? or is the injector pump not that strong. Tractors never have one...granted they are usually kinda gravity feed. The mack doesn't have one, neither does the dozer.

the engine in question is an electronically controled engine. the previous engine, 12v, was a mechanical engine and does have a mechanical fuel pump.

on the 2nd gen 24v engines, the hole is still in the block for a mechanical pump and there is a block off plate over it. that being said, there is no lobe/gear on the cam in 24v to drive the mechanical pumps.

the other problem with the mechanical pump is that it provides too high fuel pressure at high RPM. max/min operating pressures for 2nd gen 24v injection pump is a highly debated topic (mainly miniumu), but most agree with a max of 16psi and min of 5(i think). there is always THAT guy that says "i run 35psi at idle", but there is an internal bypass valve in the injection pump thats set ~14-16 psi so more then that doesnt really matter in my opinion. im sure the reason for running such high idle pressure is so that it is at max aloud pressure under heavy fueling and WOT. in my opinion, this only works for the racing/pulling only trucks since the majority of people dont spend the majority of their time at WOT.

im sure this is more then you ever wanted to know about the inner workings of Dodge fuel systems, but i have more if you really want to know...:flipoff2:

[KrazyKarl02]

im sure this is more then you ever wanted to know about the inner workings of Dodge fuel systems, but i have more if you really want to know...:flipoff2:

I was pretty content with amount of knowledge I had of the Dodge system before my neighbor came over and asked for help. In fact I could of died with no regret of not knowing the differences in Dodge diesel injection. I would have been content to continue watching TV that day.

However, thanks for the info. I'll see if we can't get his dodge going again.

[StevenAg03]

one thing i would do before you even try to get it started is check the codes. the easiest way to do it is turn the key to the on position 3 times and leave it on after the third time... off-on-off-on-off-on. the codes will be displayed at the odometer. report back with your codes...

[eight]

That code thing doesn't work on the older models like mine. I think it started in 01.

Looks like yall figured out how to start it. It'll run rough for a little while and smooth out as more cylinders start firing.

Replacement fuel pump can be bought at dodge for $400 or cummins for $140 last I checked in about 04. Dam I'm getting old.

[StevenAg03]

That code thing doesn't work on the older models like mine. I think it started in 01..

didnt know that... how do you check codes on yours without a scanner?




Replacement fuel pump can be bought at dodge for $400 or cummins for $140 last I checked in about 04. Dam I'm getting old.

i think they are around $160 from autozone or the like...

[eight]

You use a scanner.

If you didn't get your fuel pumps from autozone maybe you wouldn't need that fancy fuel pump setup.

[StevenAg03]

You use a scanner.

If you didn't get your fuel pumps from autozone maybe you wouldn't need that fancy fuel pump setup.

thats why i bought it from O'Reilly :flipoff2:

[DRAGOONRANCH]

my 89 would flash the cel so you could read the code.

[KrazyKarl02]

Rod Ryan did not ask for help today, so no update. The dodge sits and waits. My F-250 laughs at it, as it runs, it looks like crap, but runs. My Chevy 3500 watches like a normal person at a cripple fight....