Transmission options?????

[bburris]

I went with a Krebs-like title to draw attention... :flipoff2:

I got the floor cut out of the donor subbie today and we were able to finagle the engine/tranny/t-case out without unbolting them from each other. I suspected that there was something wrong with the distibutor because it felt loose. When we got it all out I saw that the aluminum part where it attaches to the block was broken all the way around so the top part spins freely... Not good. I guess I'll look on ebay for one from the same time frame. Are they somewhat universal?

The other problem is the tranny. There is a big crack from the top bolt to the second bolt down and a chunk appears to be missing. Very bad. I can't use this thing in that condition because I know how I drive... Would you guys suggest finding a 700R4 and one of the more common TBI computers and not worrying about all the problems I may encounter with the 4L60E swap, or should I look for a new 4L60E case and try to go through with it for a little bling factor? I've been reading a lot about the 4L60E and it doesn't seem like it'll ba that bad, especially since I was able to save all of the sub's harness to reuse whatever I need. I'm just not sure that it's worth the extra hassle and cost if I could just find a 700R4 and bolt that in.

The outputs will be the same, so I can still use the NP241 and get the super shorty SYE like I planned... The tranny is all I have to worry about before I can start the manual labor part of getting it all shoe-horned into the Jeep.

[bburris]

Oh yeah, for those of you that know anything about the ECU numbers, the one I got with the suburban is Serv. No. 16197427 is that matters at all...

[cntryboy1865]

use whichever one you can find, and if you already have all of the computers and harnesses the 4l60e should not be all that hard.

[robertf03]

brett I'll give you a bellhousing if you sack up and put a 465 or 420 in there.

[bburris]

As far as the 4L60E goes, the wiring harness is a slight problem. The electronic shifting computer controlled crap is supposed to give some problems, and everyone that has done the swap has ended up with some oddball shifter problems unless you reuse the stock column shifter. I'm not going to, so that'd be something else to deal with. Also, I'm not completely sure about an auto since I've only ever driven the Jeep as a standard...

Robert - that sounds good since I have Jimmy's 465 that needs a little TLC, but how would that all work with the computer? Would I just need to find the 7747 ECM and only worry about wiring the engine? That option would also mean having to buy a pricey adapter from Novak or AA and I'd have to deal with fabbing all the clutch linkage, which means this swap will take even longer... I'm not so sure about that...

Would I also be looking for the 7747 ECM if I got a 700R4?

[robertf03]

brett i'm sure that any errors or odd **** can be remedied in the ecm by changing a few things. I'll have to check the definition file some more but I'm sure its there. Hell, I'll be it would work fine if you just leave the park/neutral switch set and run a non computer controlled transmisison.

I wouldn't mess with a 747 ecm yet, I don't see why the one you got with that engine won't work, and most of the harness will be different.

as far as the shifter for the 4l65e (right Fred :flipoff2: ) did you look into 4th gen f body shifters? Knowing GM I'm sure even the plug is the same and then you wouldn't have to run a column shifter.

fabbing clutch linkage is the least of your worries in a drivetrain swap. its hydraulic, just copy davido's mount and route the line.

[bburris]

I haven't looked in to stock style shifters. I mostly looked around at B&M, Hurst and Lokar stuff and the people at Lokar are the only ones that offer something like I was looking for and you have to buy extra crap for it...

As far as swapping in a manual, I've been trying to look for linkage and hydraulic routing info and pics, and it doesn't look too too bad. I suppose I could reuse some of the stock crap and go from there. I think the main reason not to go that direction is the extra $500+ that an adapter and everything else would cost as opposed to finding a 700R4 and just bolting it up.

Can this 16197427 computer get programmed to act normal with a different tranny? I just thought the 747 ECM would be easier to work with if I was eliminating the tranny controls and I wouldn't have to worry about oddball programming.

[agjohn02]

ive had trouble getting my torque converter to lock-up correctly with a non-computer controlled 700r4. i suggest going with the 4l60e. ill get it worked out but its just been a pain. anybody got any good ideas? i tried the kit from jegs and it didnt work for crap.

[uglyota]

I suspected that there was something wrong with the distibutor because it felt loose. When we got it all out I saw that the aluminum part where it attaches to the block was broken all the way around so the top part spins freely... Not good. I guess I'll look on ebay for one from the same time frame. Are they somewhat universal?
I'm kinda interested in the answer to this as well

[uglyota]

...since I have Jimmy's 465 that needs a little TLC, but how would that all work with the computer? Would I just need to find the 7747 ECM and only worry about wiring the engine? That option would also mean having to buy a pricey adapter from Novak or AA and I'd have to deal with fabbing all the clutch linkage, which means this swap will take even longer... I'm not so sure about that...
to mate a SBC to a GM tranny?

[Doug Krebs]

to mate a SBC to a GM tranny?
probably the 465 to whatever transfer case he is going to run

[fbronco86]

brett I'll give you a bellhousing if you sack up and put a 465 or 420 in there.

yeah butkiss sack up

[BigRedFord04]

i'd say use the 465. FUKK all that automatic tranny non-sense. you shouldnt have to worry about the computer, the way i've always understood it was that you can use a manual, w/ a comp from an automatic, but not the other way around.

the adapter i'm sure he was talking about was 465 to xfer case (NP241?).

[uglyota]

okay
you guys are smart, I'm dumb
you're handsome, I'm...not...so...good looking...
:flipoff2:

[bburris]

OK, after calling Novak and Advance I have found that neither of them make an adapter for mating an SM465 to an NP241. This means retaining my stock NP231, but I will have to open it back up to put the larger input gear (go from stock 21 spline to "upgraded" :rolleyes: 23 spline) and install a wide chain. The adapter from Novak is $509, and the adapter from Advance will be right around the same price.

I would also have to buy a rebuild kit from Novak (or other) for the SM 465 for ~$200.

I would also have to collect clutch parts and a bellhousing...

Kepping an auto is sounding better and better...

[jerryg79]

what's wrong with that 465, it looked fine when me and jimmy opened it up.

[bburris]

In order to install the adapter you have to disassemble a bit of the transmission anyway. Also, I'd prefer to start with something that's been rebuilt instead of having to deal with any future problems that may arise from skimping now.

[uglyota]

...I'd prefer to start with something that's been rebuilt instead of having to deal with any future problems that may arise from skimping now.
I think a review of the TAMOR by-laws is in order...way too many of us are doing things "the right way" lately

[bburris]

I've been around long enough to learn from doing things the other way. Whoever has seen or heard my Jeep run will understand this...

[fbronco86]

why do you want this np231 or np241 put on a t-case that bolts up

[bburris]

because having less than a 2:1 low range is for fags and a Chevy t-case wouldn't exactly be the right side drop

[Doug Krebs]

why do you want this np231 or np241 put on a t-case that bolts up
Yeah, whats bad about running a 208 with a fixed yoke output. I bet you could find a 465 with a 208 for under 300 pretty easy.

Only bad things I can think of is length and the 208 has slighty less of a low range.

Edit: disregard above due to your above post.

Is there some way to use the ford 208 in combination with the chevy 208 to achieve driver side drop?

[fbronco86]

Yeah, whats bad about running a 208 with a fixed yoke output. I bet you could find a 465 with a 208 for under 300 pretty easy.

Only bad things I can think of is length and the 208 has slighty less of a low range.

Edit: disregard above due to your above post.

Is there some way to use the ford 208 in combination with the chevy 208 to achieve driver side drop?

screw all the chevy crap. put in a real motor that was designed for racing the 302 then everything is solved.

[bburris]

When did this turn to a t-case thread? I'm using the 231 or the 241 because they're readily available (sitting in the driveway) and I can toss a 4:1 kit in one of them easily. If I went another direction it'd be with an Atlas.

Yeah Mike...let me just go scrap the drivetrain I just got along with the rest ofthe suburban and I'll start looking for a "real" motor. :rolleyes:

[Doug Krebs]

screw all the chevy crap. put in a real motor that was designed for racing the 302 then everything is solved.

Ron? Is that you?? Maybe use the Taurus SHO motor?

[fbronco86]

When did this turn to a t-case thread? I'm using the 231 or the 241 because they're readily available (sitting in the driveway) and I can toss a 4:1 kit in one of them easily. If I went another direction it'd be with an Atlas.

Yeah Mike...let me just go scrap the drivetrain I just got along with the rest ofthe suburban and I'll start looking for a "real" motor. :rolleyes:

ok ok dont get all cranky on us here. and yes the motor idea was for ron

[robertf03]

Brett I paid 75 bones for a 23 spline np231 at pick and pull and there is no shortage of them.


if there is no play in the bearings and the synchros are still sharp do not buy a rebuild kit for the sm465. Waste of money.

[Doug Krebs]

Brett I paid 75 bones for a 23 spline np231 at pick and pull and there is no shortage of them.


if there is no play in the bearings and the synchros are still sharp do not buy a rebuild kit for the sm465. Waste of money.

Yeah, I have 2 two wheel drive ones i'm not using at the moment any how... Need a spare?

[bburris]

I'm not worried about the 231. If I have to use it I was just saying I would need to rebuild it again. I have a 23 spline input and wide chain in the garage in the bucket of 231 parts that Blake and I have aquired over the past couple years.

As for the 465, if it's all taken apart anyway I'd prefer to just rebuild it. That's just personal preference and a learning experience since I know someone that can show me how to do it.

[uglyota]

Ron? Is that you?? Maybe use the Taurus SHO motor?
I swear I'm putting one of those in something someday! (Maybe a 240z or an opel)
who's ron?

[Doug Krebs]

I swear I'm putting one of those in something someday! (Maybe a 240z or an opel)
who's ron?

haha... I don't feel like explaining, maybe mike, jerry, or jessica wants to!

It actually is kind of a cool engine i guess with the different length intake runners...

[robertf03]

As for the 465, if it's all taken apart anyway I'd prefer to just rebuild it. That's just personal preference and a learning experience since I know someone that can show me how to do it.

it won't be all taken apart, just the main shaft. you leave the idler and reverse shaft in the case.

if you really want to freshen it up, just buy the synchros and put new ones on there. There is no need to tear the whole thing down and replace bearings. If its that bad hit up Krebs for one of his, those bearings should last 400k+ miles.

Now if you got another automatic transmission would you rebuild it? It is not uncommon for them to take a crap at around 100k, and it'll probably be at least 800 or so to have someone rebuild it when you can do the sm465 yourself + parts. If you want to run an auto then do it, but it sounds like your trying to justify an automatic by saying a sm465 will cost too much when in reality it will be a few hundred cheaper even if both are rebuilt with all new bearings.

[BigRedFord04]

i agree w/ flem + the cost of buying an auto from a junkyard to replace youre fubared one wont be cheap. $500 for an adapter i still think will be less than the cost of acquiring the automatic and going thru it to make sure it works....but damn thats a rip off.

[uglyota]

it won't be all taken apart, just the main shaft. you leave the idler and reverse shaft in the case.

if you really want to freshen it up, just buy the synchros and put new ones on there. There is no need to tear the whole thing down and replace bearings. If its that bad hit up Krebs for one of his, those bearings should last 400k+ miles.

Now if you got another automatic transmission would you rebuild it? It is not uncommon for them to take a crap at around 100k, and it'll probably be at least 800 or so to have someone rebuild it when you can do the sm465 yourself + parts. If you want to run an auto then do it, but it sounds like your trying to justify an automatic by saying a sm465 will cost too much when in reality it will be a few hundred cheaper even if both are rebuilt with all new bearings.
and if you still use an auto after all of this we're going to start calling you brettnutz :flipoff2:

[bburris]

OK, this just got thrown into the loop. Our buddy Maverick called and a friend of his that builds drag cars had this laying in his shop. He got it from a buddy at the Chevy dealer for next to nothing in case the one in his suburban went out. It's from a 1995 Suburban 4x4...what a coincidence. He gave it to me for free.

I'm going to check in to getting this one checked out by someone, and they can use the one that came with the engine for parts if that's possible, and see about a shift kit and things like that. This just gives me more options to ponder for the next week or so.

http://www.texasoffroad.net/albums/lonestar/album420/DSC00228.sized.jpg
http://www.texasoffroad.net/albums/lonestar/album420/DSC00229.sized.jpg
http://www.texasoffroad.net/albums/lonestar/album420/DSC00230.sized.jpg

[Graystroke]

no, put it in the back of a Ford Festiva and call it a SHOGUN!

Kreb's how much you want for that 465?

[Graystroke]

Brett, been painting something yellow lately? :flipoff2:

[bburris]

I'm not sure what you mean with the first response, but as for the yellow paint...that's been there for about two years. When I throw something into the bed hard enough it'll chip a little more away, but that's what was left of the gallon of oil based rig paint that dumped over back there when I took a corner on a dirt road going a little too fast.

[bburris]

I'm pretty sure I'm going with the SM465. I'm going to take the top off to inspect everything with someone that knows what they're looking at and I'll replace whatever needs to be replaced. I'll adapt it to the NP231 I currently have and just run the engine with the computer, and figure out what to do about the VSS.

My 231 will get a wide chain, maybe a 2-Lo kit and possibly a 23 spline input. We'll see how industrious I get once it's out of the Jeep.

I started pricing things out and I think I can rebuild the SM465 and buy all the clutch parts for less than I would spend on getting the two 4L60E's bench built into one functional and trustworthy unit. Besides, after talking to a few people today there aren't really any trustworthy shops in Corpus to take them to that will warranty the work on a bench rebuild.

I guess I need to locate a truck bellhousing with the 5 1/16" bore along with the correct clutch fork. Then I'll need to try to sort out all the crap I just read on Novak's site here. (http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm) I need a little downtime for my brain after trying to process all that.

I can get a new 12" clutch and new flywheel from CarQuest, along with the water pump I had already planned on buying there. I still need to find a working distributor, though...

[Doug Krebs]

What bell housing are you looking for? I have a couple, I think 2 of them are the old cast iron bell housing. I also have an aluminum hydro slave cylinder bell housing, but that one's mine :D

The one I use on the blazer is an aluminum one, but used the mechincal linkage instead of hydraulic... I couldn't find a hydraulic one when i did it so I just made a mount for the slave cylinder out of a couple pieces of 1" angle iron. I've had no problem with it...

[Graystroke]

I swear I'm putting one of those in something someday! (Maybe a 240z or an opel)
who's ron?
no, put it in the back of a Ford Festiva and call it a SHOGUN!
note: refering to SHO Motor
Is that better? Sorry for the confusion......

[uglyota]

no, put it in the back of a Ford Festiva and call it a SHOGUN!
note: refering to SHO Motor
Is that better? Sorry for the confusion......
wasn't there one of those on the Power Tour?

No thanks, furds suck and the festiva was the flagship...I just want the yamaha part :flipoff2:
unfortunately it seems I will have to mate it to a furd transmission

[bburris]

The one I use on the blazer is an aluminum one, but used the mechincal linkage instead of hydraulic... I couldn't find a hydraulic one when i did it so I just made a mount for the slave cylinder out of a couple pieces of 1" angle iron. I've had no problem with it...
If you're going to be around the Blazer any time soon would you mind taking a couple pics of your setup? I've been looking at Dave's FJ pictures but I just want to see a few before I try to figure out what to do.

[Doug Krebs]

If you're going to be around the Blazer any time soon would you mind taking a couple pics of your setup? I've been looking at Dave's FJ pictures but I just want to see a few before I try to figure out what to do.

I had to make it quick, so it isn't much to look at. My concerns at the time was that it was strong and it worked. Basically I took out the pivot bolt thing on the bell housing and use that hole and another hole on the engine for the mounting position. Then i welded a piece about 90 degrees or whatever the angel i needed it to be so that the slave was lined up with the clutch fork. Then i weld another 1" angle on the hypotenuse (sp?) side of the triangle to finish it.