Figure this out

[BigRedFord04]

ok....so i got my new CD player in the mail yesterday, got it installed and after about an hour of jammin' in the driveway i was kinda worried about pissin' off the neighbors, so i went drivin' around to play with it. 1st weird thing: had just got outta my neighborhood, cruisin' in 4th and the engine dies....RPMs=0....i punched the gas pedal and it started back up like nothing was wrong. :confused:. so, i keep drivin', stop for gas and it starts right up when i'm ready to leave. i get outta the parking lot onto the main road and it just died. i let it coast thru heavy traffic to the turn lane and just sat there. it would crank and crank and crank and crank but no fire. i could hear the fuel pump priming in each of the gas tanks, it just wouldnt start. (this was actually fortunate timing b.c. while i was sitting there in a dead truck i looked over and there were two "hefty" black females having a throw down fist fight in the empty lot on the side of the road...i just sat and watched until one was laying on the ground and the other got in her car and left...it was awesome....sorry, no pics b.c. i left my camera in tate's truck :( woulda made an awesome video too) anyway...i finally decide to get out and pop the hood, unplug the coil wire and plug it back in. get in the truck and it fires right up. :confused: no problems the rest of the trip. i went over to Fredo's later and he was fortunate enough to experience this with me so someone else can verify i'm not imagining things. it started for like 2 seconds and then died...then did the same thing....crank and crank and crank, no start. tried unplugging the coil wire again and plugging it back in but that didnt fix anything. i finally just started flipping the two switches on my dash (battery isolator and elec. fans) jokingly and after one of 'em was on it started right up. WTF??? :confused: i'm thinkin maybe clogged fuel filter? crap in the distributor? (i'm gonna check and clean that anyway) coil is broke? (i thought when they died there was no goin' back?) could it have something to do w/ the MSD 6AL goin' out? thats about all the ideas i got to start with. suggestions?

[uglyota]

any relays gettin hot?
icm getting hot? (does your msd replace the icm?)

[BigRedFord04]

what relays would i have to check? the ones in the fuse box under the hood?

the MSD is wired inline w/ the ICM. i bought the extra connector for the MSD to make it plug and play. basically the signal the ICM would normally send straight to the coil goes thru the MSD then out to the coil.

there was a bunch of crap under the distributor cap and the rotor had a crapload of carbon buildup on the end. cleaned the rotor and cleaned out the distributor the best i could. doesnt have the short hesitation at startup it had before but i dont think that was the problem. gonna go get a fuel filter and some injector cleaner and try that next....damn i hate doin' the fuel filter on this thing.

oh, after i installed the CD player there was one white wire that i had no idea where it went to. figured out after it got dark last nite that it was the power to the light in my tach. pulled the CD player back out and connected that wire back into the dimmer circuit for the dash gauges and it works now. until last nite driving around not being able to see the tach i never realized how much i rely on it for everyday driving....i dunno how i got along w/o it before.

[uglyota]

any relays involved with the ignition circuit...
did you try taking the msd out of the loop when you were having the problem. When it's running does it feel sluggish or intermittently sluggish? Doesn't sound like frool filter to me, or injectors. Sounds like ignition.

[BigRedFord04]

its been sluggish for a while....intermittently....weird. its like you're reading my truck's mind....are you psychotic? :D same problem i've had forever...every now and then smash on the gas, RPMs go up but the truck doesnt go anywhere....then it'll kick in and throw you back in the seat...that particular problem almost sounds like clutch but i'm about 98% sure its not clutch.

[uglyota]

it's your kanuder bearing. Fix that and get back to me.
So when it's acting sluggish, you can rev it and it doesn't go anywhere? That's gotta be clutch. Are you remembering to release the clutch pedal? ;)
fuel filters act weird sometimes, like crap can block it, but when pressure's relieved it flows back and opens up.
How does it measure air? MAP? MAF?

[BigRedFord04]

you'd really have to experience the go no where feeling when its revving to understand.

air measured by MAP sensor, Intake Air Temp sensor (IAT), Idle Air Control Motor (IACM), TPS....all that crap.

what do you mean "it flows back and opens up"?

[Chadnutz]

When 'strokes act like this, most of the time it is the CPS. When you crank, does the tach register RPM when it isn't starting? If not, then your CPS is dead and you puter doesn't know that the engine is turning.

[BigRedFord04]

i dunno if it was registering RPMs, see above for reason i couldnt read the tach. when you say CPS...cranshaft or camshaft position sensor? either way, i dont think my truck has one of those. if it did where would it be? timing cover?

[uglyota]

doesn't the tach usually go off a dist. pickup?
speaking of which, those sometimes go bad, but I don't think they're intermittent.
what I mean by "it flows back and opens up" is that the fuel pump's pushing fuel through the filter, as well as any trash that's in suspension. When it hits the entry to the filter, the trash can build up and cause blockage. When the pump stops, you get a little backflow of fuel out of the filter, which can take some of that blockage away temporarily. What's the idle air control motor do?

edit: I read everything again. I think you just need to change your fuel filter

[StevenAg03]

as for it reving up and going no where...i have been in it...it feels like the clutch but at the same time it doesnt. when it revs up it is not like its a good rev but kind of like its bogging down. also if it were the clutch you would smell something....

as for the ignition...sounds like there might be a problem with a connection on the ignition somewhere and when you unplugged the coil and plugged it back in it jiggled the wire enough to work again. ...also check the module(i believe thats what its called) its located on the side of the distributer...

[BigRedFord04]

here's what i learned in the last half hour:

there is no mention of a CPS (crank or cam) anywhere in my haynes manual for my motor. ICM is not getting hot. MSD is not getting hot. coil is not getting hot (found a spare in my toolbox also). There are no relays in the fuse box under the hood that have anything to do w/ fuel or ignition....none of 'em were getting hot anyway. There is, however, a fuse missing from that box. looked it up and its supposed to be for ABS. tried to put a fuse in and it wobbles around...upon further inspection there's no wiring to that particular slot. There is wiring and a fuse in the dash fuse panel that is marked ABS. wtf? i know theres a light on the dash that says ABS but honestly i dont know that i've ever felt any kind of ABS working....because, you know, its all mostly stock anyway. was just weird they'd put a fuse in one spot and terminate the circuit elsewhere. Power steering fluid was low. engine oil is low (found that i think the front main is leaking). my tach is aftermarket and runs off the MSD box so chadnutz's idea that parts being broke that i dont even have on my truck is 100% null and void. :flipoff2:

my dad's putting $$ in my acct to buy a new coil b.c. thats what he thinks it is (didnt realize 'til after he offered i had a spare)...think i'll change the oil, the $5 fuel filter and enjoy a 6er on him while doing it :D

[BigRedFord04]

my body style truck has the ignition control module you speak of steve mounted on the driver's side inner fender near the firewall. they evidently figured out that by having them mounted on the distributor, the heat from the engine was causing them to go bad prematurely.

and i'm glad someone else knows that hesitation feeling. another reason i think its the fuel filter, its like the flow is blocked part of the time and its enough to make RPMs climb but not enough for full power. i'm off to the store. update later.

[aggieblazer07]

I had a similar problem that ended up being the MAP sensor in my chevy. it would spit and sputter for a while then I would floor it and it would rev up high and stay in the low gear, then 2 minutes later there would be no problem. Once I replaced the sensor it was fine.

[BigRedFord04]

after a trip to a ho'reillys and wal-mart the rest of the evening went as follows: changed the oil. surprising how much oil pressure improves when theres enough oil in the engine. changed the fuel filter.....the god damn piece of **** ****ing ******* fuel filter. i've got a feeling i'm going to smell like gas for a few days and my carhartt will never be the same. the only two things i can think of that were running thru the Ford engineers minds when they designed that fuel filter mount/location/connections are either A: they were worried about the high fuel filter theft that was going on in the mid `90s, or 2: they really didnt give a good gawd dayum about performing scheduled maintenance. what a piece of ****. that seemed like it fixed it for about 5 miles then the hesitation started again. got home, ate dinner then swapped the spare (which i realized to be the factory) coil on, no change. glad i didnt buy a $50 coil. after that didnt fix it i took the portaband to the old fuel filter to see whats inside....it was pretty dirty but no large gobs of mud or anything. i think it was last replaced shortly before i rebuilt the engine ~27K miles ago.

FLEM:, is your code scanner still over at Fredo's? if so, do you mind if i borrow it again? if you've got it at your place, can i come by Friday after a little after 4 to pick it up? i'll have the $$ you loaned me then.

well i guess i'll try the MAP sensor next depending on what the code scanner says. its one of few things on my truck that hasnt been replaced. 154K and still runnin' like a Ford. at least the radio sounds good. :gigem:

[robertf03]

not sure where its at, I'll look around tomorrow

My bet is the ICM, I had a bad wells icm on a junkyard distributor and it sucked.

check all the wiring connectors too, I don't think ford figured out the weatherpack concept until the late 90's

as to the crank sensor talk, there is none.

even SEFI mustangs and lightnings don't really have one, there is a smaller tooth on all eec4 distributors that tells it who's #1.

[stx4wheeler]

i doubt this is it but the whole diying then when you let off and coming back along with starting sometimes and not others, is what mine did when the tps went out, i know that you and me replaced ours at the same time but just a thought for you man. hope you get it fixed

[BigRedFord04]

that was also a thought. my dad bought me one, and before i could put it on flem gave me one he got in the junkyard so i used it and returned the new one for $40. its been idling kinda high again. but now i have a reciept for a TPS so if its bad again i'll get one under "warranty" :D

damn i want this thing to run right again. its been messed up and i've been chasing problem after problem ever since a trip to llano in early `03.

i've got an appointment tomorrow at Sears to have the alignment looked at...thanks to some info i got from david oliver i might've found the reason i'm eating tires on the frontend. hmmmm....wonder if i can talk 'em into scanning the codes for me.....

[robertf03]

well if tps and icm don't fix it maybe its mass air time

you'll replace enough wiring and the computer, so its really just the next step in the process of elimination :D

[BigRedFord04]

no joke. i've been thinkin' about that too as an option to make these problems go away, but i wanna do it right the 1st time which involves spending a bunch of $$.

my dad did finally have to quit claiming me on his taxes which means i'll be getting a fat refund this year....hmmm.....

[BigRedFord04]

Flem, did you ever get a chance to look for the code scanner? I get off work tomorrow at 4 i think and wanna swing by your house afterwards to give you some $$ and pick up the YJ springs for Foley. i'll give you a call on your cell when i'm leaving.

[JeepsterJayson]

I guess MAP sensor or TPS sensor. I bet you wish you had my POS Ford there for testing parts. It took me a year to get mine running after I put that motor in. Fawk cheap headers.
My hesitation went away when I fixed my timing issue. I bet that’s not your current problem though.

[robertf03]

Flem, did you ever get a chance to look for the code scanner? I get off work tomorrow at 4 i think and wanna swing by your house afterwards to give you some $$ and pick up the YJ springs for Foley. i'll give you a call on your cell when i'm leaving.

I might have left it over at Fred's, I can't find it anywhere around here.

I should be around, call the cell to make sure.

[BigRedFord04]

scanned the codes....TPS and O2 sensor....again. ghey. i'll try to get ho'reilly's to warranty the junkyard TPS flem gave me. anyone know specifically how to hotwire the O2 sensor to make it always think its running perfect? its 4 wires, 2 white, one black and one grey.

[BigRedFord04]

.....ahhhhh......AND ICM....#212 "Ignition module circuit failure/SPOUT circuit grounded" :rainbow:

[uglyota]

anyone know specifically how to hotwire the O2 sensor to make it always think its running perfect? its 4 wires, 2 white, one black and one grey.
check out mark's treatise on o2 sensors in my thread from a month or so ago.
I don't think it's that easy though; a few companies make o2 sensor simulators that do this. Maybe just the right resistor would do it though?

[BigRedFord04]

yeah.....i did some lookin' around the web on O2 sensor simulators and it doesnt really sound like a good idea....just gonna have to replace it next time i get paid.

[agjohn02]

o2 sims are just for after cat sensors when you have four and want to ditch the cats. i wouldnt run one on the primary sensor. bad things could happen.

[eight]

You can't get all those sensors at a pocket discount from a local junk yard? And get me a 93-95 GM TPS sensor connector while you're at it.

[BigRedFord04]

i got a brand new TPS today under "warranty" ;) from ho'reilly's and at the expense of a couple burn blisters from hot engine, i changed it in their parking lot. it still ran like chit until i got home and cleared the codes. after that it ran like chit too until the computer had time to readjust to the new sensor. now it runs decent but after about 15 mins cruising the check engine light came on again. scanned the codes again....previously it was 122, 172, 173, and 212. 122 is TPS. 172 is O2 (lean). 173 is O2 (rich). 212 is ICM. this time it was just 173 and 212. so, i'll try replacing those two. gonna have to actually pay for an O2 sensor b.c. they only have one year warranty, but i might have a receipt for an ICM when i replaced it on my old Ford.

if that still dont fix it then i'm done fukkin' w/ it and will start accumulating parts for a Mass Air swap sooner than planned.

[AgDieseler]

Did you get those spindle shims in?

[BigRedFord04]

nope....found out there are different degree shims, as well as different degree caster nuts. i was gonna have the alignment checked and find out how much its off then fix it myself, but one of my buddies at 4WPW in Plano said they'd align it for $50 so i'm gonna have them try and do it.

[agjohn02]

you didnt know what spindle shims were when i put mine in or at least seemed to think they werent needed. are you talking about the same thing? whats a caster nut?

[BigRedFord04]

yeah.....well....i learned differently by wearing out tires. "caster nut" talking about the nut that screws into the top ears of the axle....the ball joints go thru them. they make them w/ angled holes for caster/camber correction. wanna get the alignment straight before i buy new tires.

[agjohn02]

ah, the threaded outside, tapered inside thing i tightened with a hammer and screwdriver? i was wondering that the other day about whether or not they made those with different offset. how much correction can you get out of them? are they all offset or are , say for instance mine, most of them centered so no matter how they are clocked they give them same castor and camber, i.e.- keep the ball joint centered? im getting mine aligned tomorrow and thought the only adjustments i had were toe in/out with the tie rod and different camber plates/spindle shims whatever.

[BigRedFord04]

ah, the threaded outside, tapered inside thing i tightened with a hammer and screwdriver? i was wondering that the other day about whether or not they made those with different offset. how much correction can you get out of them? are they all offset or are , say for instance mine, most of them centered so no matter how they are clocked they give them same castor and camber, i.e.- keep the ball joint centered? im getting mine aligned tomorrow and thought the only adjustments i had were toe in/out with the tie rod and different camber plates/spindle shims whatever.
yeah...that thing. the camber plates are available .25*-1.5* and the nuts are the same. so between the two you can get up to 3*. i'd have to say the norm would be non-offset (centered). i'd always thought the same thing about alignment on a straight axle, with the exception of the spindle shims which i'd never seen before yours, and never really saw the importance of until recently.

[agjohn02]

well, you saw how i did castor, but no nut would have given me the amount of correction i needed, something like 10*. for camber i just used the factory shims. dont know how much they gave me but i guess ill find out tomorrow. im hoping the nuts i used are centered.

[Doug Krebs]

hey penis, have you checked the fuel pump??

I've had similar problems with both the fuel pump and the fuel filter.

Changed fuel filter... fixed problem for a little while... fuel pump was still good.

500 miles later truck was acting like yours and then died. Turns out the fuel pump had been loosing fins which clogged up first fuel filter. Then it lost all fins and ceased to pump fuel!

Just a suggestion before you go crazy with the sensors.

[BigRedFord04]

fuel pumps are in tank. have never touched them. hope to never have to. i can hear the pump priming in both tanks when i turn the key on, and when it did die it didnt make a difference which tank/pump was turned on in whether or not it started, which led me to believe fuel pumps are fine since i'd think its VERY unlikely they both crap at the same time. i think i posted that i cut the old fuel filter open and there wasnt anything unusual inside but it was dirty.

my thoughts for the latest discovery is that if the ICM is messing up, and its not firing when its supposed to, then its not burning all the gas and its getting pushed out the exhaust valves and burning up in the headers/exhaust before the O2 sensor, leading the O2 sensor to believe the truck is running rich. and since i think i can get an ICM for free i'll try that next.

[BigRedFord04]

well, i mentioned before that by cutting off my cats i went from ~8.5-9mpg to 10.6-10.7 mpg consistently....since changing the oil, fuel filter and all the other random crap i've mentioned in this thread it jumped again up to 12.7mpg on the last tank :gigem: hope it wasnt a fluke! i dont remember trying to drive more conservatively so hopefully it was something i did. and since its evidently on a gas mileage kick, maybe i'll clean out the K&N and see if that helps any....prolly been 30,000 miles anyway. this definately made up for the fact that it was still running like total bagged ass on the way home from work tonite.

[BigRedFord04]

i ran into Rex at the Chicken Friday nite and got to talkin' to him and evidently he works @ Advance in Bryan now. when i asked he offered to "warranty" my parts if i came by Saturday, so i did, and he did. replaced ICM and O2 sensor then cleared the codes and its running great! FINALLY!! 250 miles thus far w/ no check engine light! whoop! ....and i'm getting ~13mpg to boot! :gigem:

[JB]

f-that, i just got 13 in town in my new 5.4. i really hope it goes up

[BigRedFord04]

i'm excited b.c. less than two months ago it was 8.5mpg and i run 93 octane.