Crawler boxes for imaginary buggy...

[Doug Krebs]

Ok, I need to get a lot of **** for this, so give it to me...

So if i ever start building the imaginary buggy, I'm going to want some kind crawler box. My original idea was 2 sm465's married and a 205 twin sticked. Well I've now been thinking about a doubler, but I'm not sure it would give me gears as low as I'd like. I'm planning on just sticking with the 4.10's in the axles... so that is hurting the doublers crawl ratio. The doubler only would get me to 104.5. I plan on running around 38 or 39" tires... In the blazer I had around 70 on 35's. I'm going to guess the buggy will weigh 1500 pounds less than the blazer so that should make a decent seat of the pants feel.

The dual sm465's obvioulsy would have a deeper crawl ratio, but I'm guessing anything over 180 is just completly rediculous. 180 may even be unnecassary. The problem is the this combo doesn't have anything between 173 and 102 which kinda of sucks... I already have already have the 2 sm465s and one mated to a 205 with a fixed yoke, but i could probably sell them for what I paid for them.

So now my new idea... for the first tranny i'd like to keep a 465, i have 2 2wheel drive ones already. I also have an assorment of bell houses and the slave/master cylinder.... So I've been researching different trannies that I think could hold up to being the second tranny. Keep in mind it will have alot of torque multiplication... Also, the t-case will probably need to be a 205 or the equivalent in strength. Also, some of these will be the wrong side drop, so I'll have to trade Kopeci my D60 for some Ford D60 he keeps talking about :flipoff2:

Keep in mind I'm going to try to make the adapters my self regardless of what I do and I'm also going to try to make the shafts also. I'm really only familiar with the strength of the chevy stuff and some of the ford. It looks like i'm going to be researching the T-18 out of a jeep or IHC. At this point in time I have no idea on the strength of it or what t-cases it has and what side drop it is.

Chart:
1st tranny is always a Sm465, the second trannies are listed below with all the relavant final crawl ratios.

Oh yeah, flame away! :flipoff2:

[Doug Krebs]

As I searched more, I turned up an interesting concept that I've seen before and also talked about. Using the planetary section of a 208 or 241 in between the tranny and tcase. This would most likely be shorter, and much lighter. The 208 would yield 136 and 75, a 241 would produce 142 and 78.

It would be much simpler to drive only dealing with 2 ranges on the second box. 2 trannies and a twin stick might be pain in the ass to drive.

Any of these combinations could require at least 1 adapter plate, maybe 2 and at least 1 custom shaft.

[Doug Krebs]

yeah!!!

hmm since i don't know you, i don't know what to think. Ass! :flipoff2:

Apparently you must be drunk, as you responded with that same reply in every other thread. :laughing:

[BMFScout]

jordan is cool, i said so :)
Doug and his imaginary buggy however, are gay ;)
give me yor axles...

[uglyota]

too heavy!
toy reduction box to dana 300!
-edit, nevermind, that gets you up to like $800 in drivetrain adapters

[uglyota]

okay now that I've actually read your post...
how are those numbers arranged?
could you list them as 1st 1st low, 1st 2nd low, 1st 3rd low, 1st 4th low, 2nd 1st low, 2nd 2nd low, 2nd 3rd low, 2nd 4th low, etc.
What I'm saying is you might get closer gearing if you wheel with the first tranny in 2nd or 3rd, and just shift through the second tranny.
This also reduces torque on the second input shaft.
this could also make you rethink running the 465 as the first tranny, and instead put the other tranny in front, and 465 behind.
wanna know why your double tranny gibberish is actually interesting to me this time around? ;)

[Doug Krebs]

eric i ommited some of the selections as they were very close to each other, ie one was 172 and another was 171. Those are all the posibilities of both trannies and with the t-case in 1:1 high, and 1:1.96 low. I have a huge excel spread sheet at home if you want me to send it to you.

Also the numbers are obviously out of order:
There is a pattern though, i think it goes low low low, then low low high, etc...

wanna do those brackets on friday after 5, we can talk more then.

I'm really leaning towards the SM465, 241 planetaries, and then the 205.

[uglyota]

yeah send it to me
I think listing the numbers out of order takes a lot of the actual usability out of it. Don't you want to be able to row through the gears normally when you're actually wheeling it? Not worrying about whether to shift the first or second tranny or tcase?

[fbronco86]

Doug you talk and think way to much

ps i read non of this post haha

[redcagepatrol]

you must have spent alot of time thinking about this - I saw your posts on lonestar - looks like fun.
figure out something cool that I can put into Lynda's Heep for some better gear reduction...

[uglyota]

scott have you seen this thread?
http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740&page=1&pp=15
Jorge needs some furrin parts...

[Sharpe]

If you used the 241/208 planetaries how would you cut up, seal, and adapt the case? I know the 241 stuff is plenty strong and the 208 stuff isnt too different so it'll probably work too but methinks that would be alot of fabrication. At least you get the 2.72 low range though.

[Doug Krebs]

Doug you talk and think way to much

ps i read non of this post haha

Yeah, so I got back on adderall and took 30 mg yesterday in 10mg intervals, the last one being at 5 so i could do better in lab from 6-9. I thought it would wear off by midnight, well not so much luck. I didn't sleep at all last night...

[Doug Krebs]

you must have spent alot of time thinking about this - I saw your posts on lonestar - looks like fun.
figure out something cool that I can put into Lynda's Heep for some better gear reduction...

what does she have now as far as tranny and tcase?

[Doug Krebs]

If you used the 241/208 planetaries how would you cut up, seal, and adapt the case? I know the 241 stuff is plenty strong and the 208 stuff isnt too different so it'll probably work too but methinks that would be alot of fabrication. At least you get the 2.72 low range though.

I'd either make a new case, or just adapt the current case. If you look for a post by desertcj on pirate and search for planetaries. You can see how he used the original case.

I'd rather use a 241 for the lower range, but it seems they are harder to come by. Any one know of one around? I really only need the gear reduction part, i.e. the front half of the case.

[Sharpe]

The driver's side ones are a dime a dozen cause they were the only case available in the 90's trucks. I doubt the electronic shift NP243 would work but it might be worth looking into, as they are highly available too. Passenger side drop ones are a PITA to find and I would shoot you if you cut one up ***. The low range of the 241 is 2.72 and the 208 is 2.62 IIRC, not THAT big of a difference but I guess for your setup you want all you can get.

[Doug Krebs]

The driver's side ones are a dime a dozen cause they were the only case available in the 90's trucks. I doubt the electronic shift NP243 would work but it might be worth looking into, as they are highly available too. Passenger side drop ones are a PITA to find and I would shoot you if you cut one up ***. The low range of the 241 is 2.72 and the 208 is 2.62 IIRC, not THAT big of a difference but I guess for your setup you want all you can get.

I'll cut up anything I choose! :flipoff2: Actually, I think drivers side drop is what I need. Hopefully I'm selling my parts blazer the weekend after springbreak, so when I'm at the barn I'll pick up my 465 and 205 and start seing what I need.

Basically, the 205 i'm using is obvioulsy a passenger side drop. So the 241 needs to be passenger side drop so when I cut the case in half that side is on the driverside and not interfering the the front drive shaft.

Are all the internals in the 241 the same strenght wise? I'm guessing these came in Z71's and other IFS trucks?

[Sharpe]

I think all the gears are the same for the 241's but I'm positive the forks are different. the passenger side ones are a bent piece of flat steel and the d' side ones are cast aluminum (the d-side ones have alot better pad design though, that alone would make the d-side case a better choice IMO). In addition the little indexing nubbies on them are clocked differently. From what I hear the NP243 is completely different though.

[Graystroke]

you want driver's drop? you want to sell the dodge front axle you have?

[Graystroke]

I know a way to get 229:1 out of a single t-case and tranny combo while only running 4.10 gears in the axles. :D
243:1 w/ a SM420

[Doug Krebs]

you want driver's drop? you want to sell the dodge front axle you have?

i want a driverside drop 241. I would cut that part off though. The 205 behind it would be a passenger side drop to go to the dodge axle. Think about it, the 205 case has the yoke and drive line on the passengerside. The 241 has the opposite, so when you cut the case in half all the junk on the driverside mostly goes away, but there will still be a square plate welded on that side. The passenger side of the 241 will just have the nice radius of the case next to the 205.


Still need to find a 241 though. Let me know if anyone see's one, and obviously the cheaper the better!

[Doug Krebs]

here ya go, pictures are worth a 1000 words. This is desertcj's setup, he's running a 231 infront of a dana 300. I labeled it as the cases I will using.

[AgDieseler]

Nice idea. There are a lot of clocking rings ou there for the 208/241 pattern, so you can move it up out of harm's way easily, and you retain the ability to twin-stick, and you have a hella strong planetary reduction in the 241. I like.

[Sharpe]

10-4 that is sweet. I found a ****load of D. side 241's down in the junkyards in corpus and they were anywhere from $300-$800, probably more than you want to pay but I might go on a junkyarding binge during the break so I'll keep my eye out.

[Doug Krebs]

10-4 that is sweet. I found a ****load of D. side 241's down in the junkyards in corpus and they were anywhere from $300-$800, probably more than you want to pay but I might go on a junkyarding binge during the break so I'll keep my eye out.


Hmmm apparently you don't know me.... $300-$800?????? Thats ****ing crazy talk! I'm a huge Joooooo the only think I pay 300 for is a dana 60! I thinking more like $50-75 max 100.

[eight]

Anybody got a 231 they'd like to give me for about nothin? It don't need a chain. I don't even care if the case is cracked. Its for a research project.

[Doug Krebs]

ok, paid 25 more than i would have liked. I could only jooo him down to $125, but it's not worth my time and gas to go searching for better deals...

[bburris]

Did you buy it from Eliot?

[Doug Krebs]

no, gordon's

[mudtoy67]

Doug, have you seen this thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578062) on Pirate? This guy built your imaginary 465/465 combo...after he built a 700R4/465 combo. :eek:

It's a little booty fab, but it apparently works.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

its been tried with toy transmissions, with varying degrees of success. Basically the added reduction and torque are really hard on parts. Normally the second tranny just isn't up to it

[DRAGOONRANCH]

Normally the second tranny just isn't up to it


I had heard you were hard on trannys, but you need to keep your sexual perversions off the boards. That's my policy atleast. ;)

[DRAGOONRANCH]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8445514#post8445514

update today