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davido
10-18-2005, 11:37 AM
Well I definitely need a solution for both. I looked around Pirate briefly and found a few things. The rear is easy, I'm looking at making one like Sam's Offroad. I have plenty of room opposite the muffler to set it up. It's a "ladder" type bar with two hardmounts at the axle and a shackle at the skidplate.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/Dcp_2131.jpg
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/antiwrapbar.htm

The front is a different story. Because of the shackle reversal, a ladder type would have to attach by shackle to the front. My tie rod is behind the axle, so that's a plus. But I still have the diff on one side, the winch in the middle, and the steering box on the other site. I have enough space on the axle tube to mount it outside of my springs, but my wheels already hit my spring when I turn so the frame end would have to be mounted to somewhere between the springs.

If I'm going to use a ladder type for the front, that leaves me with a shackle hanging down, which I don't want. I did find a couple of possibilities.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/albums/stgeorge_2004_tech/afr.jpg

Question: Do these actually work? I saw that several people have them, but I'm not convinved that this wouldn't A. limit articulation or B. eliminate wrap. And with the trivetrain components that I have, I need something that totally eliminates the wrapping stress on the springs, not just limits it.

This was a totally different type if setup.
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/images/20030119171608_new3.jpg
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/


I'd have to look to see if I even have the space for this, but it's an interesting option.

Any other ideas?

TxCruzr
10-18-2005, 11:50 AM
Look for High5 on por...I'm almost positive he has one on this front axle and its a SR too. I know I have it saved somewhere, I'll look this afternoon after my test :rolleyes:

TexTJ209
10-18-2005, 12:03 PM
The Jeepaholics guys seem to have good success with the Bambar, from what I've heard them talking about it.

uglyota
10-18-2005, 12:05 PM
that bar looks like it would bind badly if the geometry wasn't exactly perfect. That's why everybody runs a shackle at the frame end these days.
look here: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspension-III.shtml#Update-part2
for ideas on anti-wrap leaves like the allpro packs have. I have been running something similar in the back and it worked well, but I have some more kinked leaves so maybe I didn't get it quite right...

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 01:34 PM
the billavista one is good except the lower link should extend all the way to the front joint, like andy's does. just look at andy's and copy it. shorten the top if you want like we talked about. the jeepaholics one will limit travel and cause the pinion to pitch downward when drooped. not a good idea to take ideas from jeep guys.

davido
10-18-2005, 03:34 PM
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspension-III.shtml#Update-part2


That guy is pretty smart. He's the one that built my steel shims for the front. I like the shock idea. I had a similar one drawn up for my 4Runner but it never got that extreme (plus longer shocks came out in time). Anyway, I have two concerns with that setup:

1. It doesn't seem like it would help when backing up, just when going forward.
2. It seems as though it would need to be a pretty stout leaf on there because of the amount of leverage I put on it. A thick leaf on top would be very bad for droop (which is all I have in the way of flex).


John, a couple of things:

1. Why do both arms have to go all the way to the end? I realize that it has to be something strong to prevent from bending (either permanently or just temporarily under load), but besides that is there any other reasoning to have them both run all the way to the shackle end?

As a side note, I was thinking that they needed to be heims or something similarly hard mounted at all ends. But after looking around, a lot of the designs use rubber bushings at several places which I would think would give it as much or more play under load than the deflection of a single shaft (like in the Billavista design).

2. If that's the case on the Jeepsaholic one, then if I used it on my front (with shackle reversal) it should actually move the pinion UP, not down down as it droops. Right?

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 04:50 PM
That guy is pretty smart. He's the one that built my steel shims for the front. I like the shock idea. I had a similar one drawn up for my 4Runner but it never got that extreme (plus longer shocks came out in time). Anyway, I have two concerns with that setup:

1. It doesn't seem like it would help when backing up, just when going forward.
2. It seems as though it would need to be a pretty stout leaf on there because of the amount of leverage I put on it. A thick leaf on top would be very bad for droop (which is all I have in the way of flex).



are you talking about this pic?

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Images/Phase-III/Fsprings3.jpg


that an anti-wrap spring only. the shock is a steering stabilizer. it would help a little but i think you want a bar set-up.







John, a couple of things:

1. Why do both arms have to go all the way to the end? I realize that it has to be something strong to prevent from bending (either permanently or just temporarily under load), but besides that is there any other reasoning to have them both run all the way to the shackle end?

As a side note, I was thinking that they needed to be heims or something similarly hard mounted at all ends. But after looking around, a lot of the designs use rubber bushings at several places which I would think would give it as much or more play under load than the deflection of a single shaft (like in the Billavista design).

2. If that's the case on the Jeepsaholic one, then if I used it on my front (with shackle reversal) it should actually move the pinion UP, not down down as it droops. Right?


the links need to go all the way so that they experience only tension and compression stress.that one sees a lot of bending. ill draw a picture. the yellow is bending, the red and blue are tension and compression stresses. the lower one should go below the centerline of the axle tube at least a little.


the jeepaholics one is an all around bad idea. if you put a shackle on the frame side it would work like its supposed to though.

BMFScout
10-18-2005, 04:55 PM
so it would work that way, you are just skeered it would break where yellow meets red and blue? I like that bar because it gets the lower link up out of the way quicker than if it went all the way to the shackle. Otherwise, you would have a bar equal or lower than the driveshaft closer to the breakover point. It is usually a miracle my rear driveshaft makes it through an event as it is.

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 04:57 PM
it doesnt have to be that long and im skeered it'll bend in the middle where its yellow and keep your axle wrapped all the time.

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 04:58 PM
andy, post a pic of yours

davido
10-18-2005, 05:13 PM
the links need to go all the way so that they experience only tension and compression stress.that one sees a lot of bending. ill draw a picture. the yellow is bending, the red and blue are tension and compression stresses. the lower one should go below the centerline of the axle tube at least a little.

I must first say that I'm not an engineer, but it seems like as long at they're between 90 - 180 degrees apart, it wouldn't matter where they were on the axle. This is assuming the arm also controls it as a fixed distance between the two eyes where it connects to the axle.


the jeepaholics one is an all around bad idea. if you put a shackle on the frame side it would work like its supposed to though.

This also doesn't seem to make sense to me. If a shackle was on there, it wouldn't have a fixed point to pull and push from. It loses it's leverage and is pointless. Seems that if it has a shackle at the end, it would also need to be fixed from rotating at the axle. So either welded or attached at two locations on the axle.

TxCruzr
10-18-2005, 05:15 PM
I couldn't find a pic of High5's but here is one that he was talking about that his is like. You've seen his rig and how well it works. Simple and effective.

http://www.texasoffroad.net/albums/members/albuo33/Jeep_finished_019.sized.jpg

davido
10-18-2005, 05:17 PM
This is the same design as Andy's:

http://www.sams4x4store.com/images/specia1.jpg

http://www.sams4x4store.com/specialty.htm#Heavy%20Duty%20Traction%20Bar

davido
10-18-2005, 05:21 PM
I couldn't find a pic of High5's but here is one that he was talking about that his is like. You've seen his rig and how well it works. Simple and effective.

Yes, he's all about KISS which I like. The one you posted is sans shackle reversal. Great design. Pretty much what I'm thiking for the rear, but unfortuntately mine would have to go forward from the axle and I haven't yet found a convenient mounting point or shackle position (more details in original post).

Keep the feedback coming though. This is helping. I'm just playing devil's advocate on some of it to expand on ideas.

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 05:42 PM
I must first say that I'm not an engineer, but it seems like as long at they're between 90 - 180 degrees apart, it wouldn't matter where they were on the axle. This is assuming the arm also controls it as a fixed distance between the two eyes where it connects to the axle.

if the lower point isnt below the axle centerline, it wont work like its suposed to...

i.e.- 1) if its inline between the frame side of the link and the axle centerline, it will do absolutely nothing and the upper link will carry all the load.
2) if its above the centerline, then both the links will experience the same stress (tension or compression) at the same time. this will leave the leaf springs to carry the reaction (opposing) force, causing them to load up, putting you right back where you were.

the picture joseph posted is a good one for you. the upper link isnt too high and wont interfer with your fuel cell if you move it and the heims will keep it from limiting flex like bushings would.





This also doesn't seem to make sense to me. If a shackle was on there, it wouldn't have a fixed point to pull and push from. It loses it's leverage and is pointless. Seems that if it has a shackle at the end, it would also need to be fixed from rotating at the axle. So either welded or attached at two locations on the axle.


now that ive sat down and looked at it, your right. like i said first, its an all around bad idea.

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 05:43 PM
Pretty much what I'm thiking for the rear, but unfortuntately mine would have to go forward from the axle and I haven't yet found a convenient mounting point or shackle position (more details in original post).

Keep the feedback coming though. This is helping. I'm just playing devil's advocate on some of it to expand on ideas.


wait, are we talking about a front anti-wrap here? :confused:

davido
10-18-2005, 05:48 PM
Subject: Anti-Wrap Front and Rear

Body: "Well I definitely need a solution for both."

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 05:49 PM
alright smartass. way to thank me for taking time out of my busy day

davido
10-18-2005, 05:52 PM
Hey, just reitterating. You asked. Would this have helped? :flipoff2:


:D ~dso

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 06:17 PM
Hey, just reitterating. You asked. Would this have helped? :flipoff2:


:D ~dso
yeah i know.


ok, ideas for the front.

1) go front shackle. its better for an off-road only vehicle anyways. the only real benefits to reverse shackle are for daily drivers. then you can duplicate your rear anti-wrap in the front. this will also cut down on, or maybe eliminate, pinion angle change due to suspension travel. also will eliminate the large change in distance between the pinion and the t-case.

2) coil springs and 3 or 4 link, then you can move you axle forward like you want to. lot of work though.

3) the "anti-wrap" leaves on top of the spring, or just an extra second leaf but on top of the spring. easy fix but i dont think will be effective enough for you

4) slapper bars, a.k.a.- gay rock anchors

5)overload springs under the leaf pack. will eliminate spring inversion and some, if not all, wrap. inversion maybe something you wanna keep. this is my rear anti-wrap and bump stop as of now. i havent experienced any wrap, but thats not saying much, unless smoking them off the line on pavement is a good testiment, havent wheeled it enough to tell if it is.

6) something different- shackles on both ends of the leaf springs with a three link. you might could do a two link, but im not sure how well the springs would locate the axle side-to-side with shackels on both ends. i think this would be cool with a three link and orbit eyes like andy's on both ends of the springs.

thats all igot for now.

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 06:18 PM
oh yeah, and you need longer shackles anyways

edit: see what i mean

eight
10-18-2005, 06:24 PM
shackles in front hit rocks and bend springs.

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 06:26 PM
shackles in front hit rocks and bend springs.


true, but shackles in rear make it hard to put an anti wrap on there and break u-joints

the shackle doesnt have to hit a rocj to bend a spring, just the tire hitting a rock can bend the spring. good spring clamps on the rear of the spring is the only thing i can think of to help out

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 06:29 PM
jimmy, is your pitman arm tre tight in this pic?


http://www.offroadrepublic.com/gallery/albums/album06/aad.jpg

eight
10-18-2005, 06:32 PM
Well shackles on the rear of rear springs don't seem to make them bend.

Why won't the kind like Andy's work on the front as is? The shackle at the frame end of the bar will allow for the axle moving forward yes?

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 06:44 PM
Well shackles on the rear of rear springs don't seem to make them bend.

Why won't the kind like Andy's work on the front as is? The shackle at the frame end of the bar will allow for the axle moving forward yes?


yes, that and ride quality are why i reversed mine, but there are pretty convincing arguments for front shackles.

the reason i assume it wont work with reverse shackle is the spring pivots in the front and will cause the anti-wrap to bind during droop and compression. basically, by putting an anti-wrap on the same side as the shackle, you're introducing an "infinitely" stiff spring, basically eliminating half the leaf spring.

eight
10-18-2005, 06:57 PM
Float axle?
http://www.competitionengineering.com/catalog/CategoryDisplay.asp?CatCode=10047

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 07:00 PM
Float axle?
http://www.competitionengineering.com/catalog/CategoryDisplay.asp?CatCode=10047


one on the right, its gonna break off

one on the left, i dont see how it pivots

agjohn02
10-18-2005, 07:02 PM
oh, instructions, good idea


its gonna break too and you better have one heck of an anti-wrap bar

Fredo
10-18-2005, 07:23 PM
jimmy, is your pitman arm tre tight in this pic?


http://www.offroadrepublic.com/gallery/albums/album06/aad.jpg

No, it wasn't. We were still putting everything together then.

davido
10-18-2005, 08:55 PM
First off, there's no ****ing way I'm going to switch my springs and mounts back to shackle in the front. That's definitely out.

4 link front would be a possibility, but I'm not ready to do that anytime soon. I need something in place before Clayton... probably even Superlift. But, this would also solve my turning radius issues (where the tire is hitting the outboarded springs). This would have to come later.

I could add longer shackles but I'm not really concerned about the flex. I'm not running competitions with it and I've yet to see a circumstance where more flex would have solved the problem. Maybe once I resolve this traction issue, that will be more aparent.

Kopecki - That's actually a really good question. I assumed that since it worked the way it did in the rear that it would have to be reversed to work like that in the front (with a shackle reversal). That may not be the case at all. But after thinking about it more, that should probably work fine. And in my case I think it would be much easier.

TxCruzr
10-18-2005, 08:55 PM
Yes, he's all about KISS which I like. The one you posted is sans shackle reversal. Great design. Pretty much what I'm thiking for the rear, but unfortuntately mine would have to go forward from the axle and I haven't yet found a convenient mounting point or shackle position (more details in original post).

High5's rig does have a SR. I'll try to see if I can find a better discription.

eight
10-18-2005, 09:25 PM
http://home.comcast.net/~chris_cloud/pictures/attached2.JPG

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332171

I'm not sure you have room to put it on top of the spring, but you could build a tower on the side. I've seen kits for this type in JCWhitney and the like. It's what I was planning on doing way back years ago when I did my first spring over, but didn't have wrap problems so didn't do it.

Cajun
10-18-2005, 10:11 PM
I don't see why an antiwrap bar like mine wouldn't work up front with a shackle reversal, even if it ran "forward" with the frame mount near the t-case. Since my bar (Sam's Offroad style) uses a shackle at the frame end, wouldn't the frame end of the bar "float" relative to the shackle end of the spring?

As for effect on pinion angle, the closer the bar is mounted to the center of the axle, the less it will droop or compress, thus minimizing effect on pinion angle as the axle articulates.

I think. :confused:

uglyota
10-18-2005, 10:20 PM
that looks like an excellent way to kink springs. Same as the cable method and feller's antiwraps. for some reason his work, but I think it's cuz he crawls and doesn't ascribe to the pogo method.
Those bars essentially work as upper links and use the front of your spring as the lower, and springs are not meant to take compression forces. The ladder bar with shackle design works well because it works independent of the suspension, but it's still basically a half-assed link suspension. I say link it.

eight
10-18-2005, 10:24 PM
So eric, where did you learn that?

And Feller's are below the springs, so they take all the compressive force, springs got it in the other way.

davido
10-18-2005, 10:33 PM
[QUOTE=Cajun]I don't see why an antiwrap bar like mine wouldn't work up front with a shackle reversal, even if it ran "forward" with the frame mount near the t-case. Since my bar (Sam's Offroad style) uses a shackle at the frame end, wouldn't the frame end of the bar "float" relative to the shackle end of the spring?[QUOTE]

After thinking about this more, it seems like it would limit droop. If the swing point of the axle is the front w/ SR, then the rear of the axle needs to be able to swing up and down in an arch in relation to it. The axle swings forward as it move up or down from the middle. While maybe not probable, it seems possible that with a bar hard mounted to the back of the axle, and pointing toward the skid plate, it could actually pull the arm forward to the point where the shackle of the arm could invert (up or down) under load (forward or reverse). With the axle is moving away from the shackle hard mount point, it stretches the shackle towards being parrallel with the bar/ladder. The reason I think it would limit droop is because the bar/ladder is is going to stay in the same position in reference to where the springs are mounted to the axle. It's trying to swing from the front (up and down) but the bar is limiting it up and down because it's fixed to the axle and limited by the shackle.

Does that make sense?

uglyota
10-18-2005, 11:05 PM
So eric, where did you learn that?

And Feller's are below the springs, so they take all the compressive force, springs got it in the other way.
learn what?
now Fellers makes sense...I forgot the bars were below the springs

dave I'm having a hard time following your description, but I think that an antiwrap bar on the shackle side of your axle would need more range of motion than the shackle can give it. It works on the spring hanger side of the axle because it only has to deal with the swing and a little bit of to-fro movement caused by the spring center-eye length effectively shortening as it arches. On the shackle side it gets a lot more to/fro
maybe if the shackle on the antiwrap bar approximated the mounting position and length of your spring shackle...

davido
10-18-2005, 11:33 PM
Is Feller's SUA or SOA? Do I need to be worried about not having a truss on these axles? (If only one side is going to have the anti-wrap bar, does it increase the likeliness of twisting a tube?)

uglyota
10-18-2005, 11:37 PM
his is soa
that seems to make sense, but do 14bolts have problems with twisting tubes?

CRaSHnBuRN
10-19-2005, 12:00 AM
since everyone is discussing my rear bars, I'll post these for you to see. This is what the rear looked like when I got it. I've since straightened out and resleeved the links. Basically its 2 links going from the frame a few inches in front of and below the front spring hanger, down to the axle. Both ends use hiems. Supposedly this desing is not supposed to work, since it should cause binding, but I guess they're in phase with the springs and therefore work very well. I have no axlewrap in the rear, good flex, and as an added bonus the bars act as ramps that help me to slide over obstacles and protects the rear driveshaft.

from underneath

http://tamor.us/members-rigs/albums/buggy/buggy0004.sized.jpg

from the side

http://tamor.us/members-rigs/albums/album36/DSCN0988.sized.jpg

a flex pic

http://tamor.us/members-rigs/albums/album36/DSC01738.jpg

[img]

Graystroke
10-19-2005, 12:10 AM
http://home.comcast.net/~chris_cloud/pictures/attached2.JPG

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332171

I'm not sure you have room to put it on top of the spring, but you could build a tower on the side. I've seen kits for this type in JCWhitney and the like. It's what I was planning on doing way back years ago when I did my first spring over, but didn't have wrap problems so didn't do it.

w/ all that jazz, might as well throw some coils under there while you're at it.

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 02:04 AM
First off, there's no ****ing way I'm going to switch my springs and mounts back to shackle in the front. That's definitely out.



the only reason i suggest this is because it is quickest and easiest




I could add longer shackles but I'm not really concerned about the flex. I'm not running competitions with it and I've yet to see a circumstance where more flex would have solved the problem. Maybe once I resolve this traction issue, that will be more aparent.




one rear tire in the air + open front carrier = 2wd

longer shackle = more flex= back to three wheel drive :flipoff2:



Kopecki - That's actually a really good question. I assumed that since it worked the way it did in the rear that it would have to be reversed to work like that in the front (with a shackle reversal). That may not be the case at all. But after thinking about it more, that should probably work fine. And in my case I think it would be much easier.




the reason i assume it wont work with reverse shackle is the spring pivots in the front and will cause the anti-wrap to bind during droop and compression. basically, by putting an anti-wrap on the same side as the shackle, you're introducing an "infinitely" stiff spring, basically eliminating half the leaf spring.

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 02:08 AM
that looks like an excellent way to kink springs. Same as the cable method and feller's antiwraps. for some reason his work, but I think it's cuz he crawls and doesn't ascribe to the pogo method.
Those bars essentially work as upper links and use the front of your spring as the lower, and springs are not meant to take compression forces. The ladder bar with shackle design works well because it works independent of the suspension, but it's still basically a half-assed link suspension. I say link it.


oooohh, the hippie's got some engineer in him. i agree.

and by "use the front of your spring as the lower" you mean the front main leaf, not the whole pack

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 02:09 AM
w/ all that jazz, might as well throw some coils under there while you're at it.


yeah. it is a six link after all. might as well cut the rear half of the spring pack off and go slinky.

tigweld
10-19-2005, 08:21 AM
sure is a lot a tractor hiems in the pix on this thread.
that should to be a sign. my .02 on wrap bars and leafs

davido
10-19-2005, 08:58 AM
sure is a lot a tractor hiems in the pix on this thread.
that should to be a sign. my .02 on wrap bars and leafs

It is. It's a sign of people that care more about getting out and wheeling than building a rig for months or years on end. :flipoff2: I've been that route. At the rate I work, it would take me a year and a half to get coils setup. But it would be nice since I would gain a lot of turning radius. What's wrong with tractor heims?

BMFScout
10-19-2005, 09:06 AM
Owned! :)

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 09:33 AM
What's wrong with tractor heims?


in the age of pirate off-roading. nothing at all, they're fancy. in the mindset of a racecar builder, heavy, loose, and gay, like jerry. :flipoff2:

BMFScout
10-19-2005, 09:45 AM
hey! Jerry isn't heavy anymore! ;)

uglyota
10-19-2005, 11:16 AM
oooohh, the hippie's got some engineer in him. i agree.

and by "use the front of your spring as the lower" you mean the front main leaf, not the whole pack
it's hereditary
and yesh, except thinking about it more, you should theoretically break pins first, maybe saving your mains

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 01:14 PM
hey! Jerry isn't heavy anymore! ;)


oh, sorry jerry, forgot you lost weight. didnt mean to offend you :flipoff2:

tigweld
10-19-2005, 01:54 PM
It is. It's a sign of people that care more about getting out and wheeling than building a rig for months or years on end. :flipoff2: I've been that route. At the rate I work, it would take me a year and a half to get coils setup. But it would be nice since I would gain a lot of turning radius. What's wrong with tractor heims?

I just think by the time you get the wrap bar made, installed, and realize it creates hella antisquat you could have just made a cheap yj bushing four link and gotten way better results. if you want to keep the leafs do a doable shackle deal with a four link seems that would work with little effort. I used to hate leaves but here lately i've seen a bunch of cool setups on desert trucks and I think it would be cool to do a long travel sua rockcrawler.

Fredo
10-19-2005, 02:07 PM
cheap yj bushing four link

SHHHHH Ryan! Don't give the yj bushing secret away! No Frocks man! No Frocks! :D

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 02:14 PM
if you want to keep the leafs do a doable shackle deal with a four link seems that would work with little effort. I used to hate leaves but here lately i've seen a bunch of cool setups on desert trucks and I think it would be cool to do a long travel sua rockcrawler.


like this? DO IT!!!
yes, four link would be better but i was thinking easy.




6) something different- shackles on both ends of the leaf springs with a three link. you might could do a two link, but im not sure how well the springs would locate the axle side-to-side with shackels on both ends. i think this would be cool with a three link and orbit eyes like andy's on both ends of the springs.

davido
10-19-2005, 02:16 PM
I just think by the time you get the wrap bar made, installed, and realize it creates hella antisquat you could have just made a cheap yj bushing four link and gotten way better results.

Ah Grasshoppa. I think you grosely overestimate my powers.


You're probably right, but I'm scared enough that I assembled my steering myself. In fact, that's already shown problems before when the shaft came loose from the box in Katemcy. So temoprarily loosing steering was scary enough, loosing an axle would be great. I don't think a 4 link is within my skillset. I need a KISS method.

Something else I forgot to ask. Does anyone have any pics of the way Tom Ellison (sp?) at Sunray has his front end setup? I seem to remember them having a cool vertical steel strap thingy. They had several rigs with it in Las Cruces back in the day (probably 5 years ago), but I've never seen it on anything else.

StevenAg03
10-19-2005, 03:17 PM
I was originally gonna post something that you should do something like his...i have seen it in person and it is pretty cool. greg and myself talked to him for a little while about it. this was back when everything was still built there. and the reason he wouldnt do SOA on gregs jeep is cause he couldnt find a way to control front wrap. anyway, he said he put a jack under the front tire and mapped out its path in relation to the frame. below is a quick rendering of his design.

davido
10-19-2005, 03:51 PM
That's it! And it was a giant hinge at the bottom so it could let the axle droop more on one side than the other. I wonder if T-Roy has pics somewhere.

eight
10-19-2005, 04:36 PM
How about rubicon express soa yj springs for the front? If your springs are the same dimensions as toy minitruck fronts it would be an easy swap. Dimensions for the springs are: 45" long, centered center pin, 2.5" wide spring, 3" wide bushing. A little can be ground off the metal sleeve in the bushing to make it a little narrower.

Cajun
10-19-2005, 04:58 PM
I just think by the time you get the wrap bar made, installed, and realize it creates hella antisquat you could have just made a cheap yj bushing four link and gotten way better results. if you want to keep the leafs do a doable shackle deal with a four link seems that would work with little effort. I used to hate leaves but here lately i've seen a bunch of cool setups on desert trucks and I think it would be cool to do a long travel sua rockcrawler.

I concede that I never drove my rig without the antiwrap bar, much less wheeled it, so I don't know what the characteristics of my rear leaf sprung suspension would've been. However, I notice very little antisquat, certainly not enough to be considered "hella".

Also, I'd be willing to bet that it'll articulate better than 90% of the link suspensions I've seen.

The front, on the other hand, is another issue. I'm starting to realize that I'm going to need to switch to links up front to get what I want out of my front end. Links solve all of my front suspension issues, pinion angle, steering clearance, and spring wrap. Anyone have any ideas for coils that are reasonably priced, will support my 460, and are about 18" tall?

In short, I know from personal experience that antiwrap bar equipped suspensions can work very well...in the rear.

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 04:58 PM
i can see how that would work if the design were refined. the drawing is definately rough. interesting

tigweld
10-19-2005, 05:02 PM
it works but is kinda clanky.

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 05:04 PM
it works but is kinda clanky.


yes, this is what i am imagining

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 07:58 PM
http://www.mountainoffroad.com/more.htm

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 08:20 PM
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253491&highlight=sunray

StevenAg03
10-19-2005, 09:48 PM
i can see how that would work if the design were refined. the drawing is definately rough. interesting

yes...his is definatly more refined then the two minute drawing i did.

AggieTJ2007
10-19-2005, 10:09 PM
it looks like a good idea

agjohn02
10-19-2005, 11:15 PM
yes...his is definatly more refined then the two minute drawing i did.


ah, you did that. plenty good for an example. i thought you found that drawing somewhere.

uglyota
10-26-2005, 12:18 PM
so I'm gonna eat my words here...
are there any tricks that I should know before making an anti-wrap bar?
In particular how do I keep it from creating "hella anti-squat?"
I'm thinking bushings at the axle end, shackle at the crossmember end with a bushing at the crossmember and heim at the bar, and try to make the geometry match the driveshaft

Sharpe
10-26-2005, 12:34 PM
Just make one like Fellar's. Its already toyotafied so just copy and paste that **** onto your truck.

agjohn02
10-26-2005, 01:06 PM
so I'm gonna eat my words here...
are there any tricks that I should know before making an anti-wrap bar?
In particular how do I keep it from creating "hella anti-squat?"

make it long



I'm thinking bushings at the axle end, shackle at the crossmember end with a bushing at the crossmember and heim at the bar, and try to make the geometry match the driveshaft


sounds good but why match the driveshaft geometry? worry more about instant center.

uglyota
10-26-2005, 01:40 PM
um, for some reason it seems like matching the driveshaft geometry would keep it from binding, since I'm only gonna put in 1 heim instead of 3. I guess the driveshaft can move any direction it wants though so that really doesn't follow
a short antiwrap bar pushes up on the frame when you launch, extending the rear suspension and creating "antisquat," correct?

redcagepatrol
10-26-2005, 01:48 PM
just make 10" long spring perches and a 8" long top plate. Bolt together and the problem is solved :gigem:

uglyota
10-26-2005, 01:52 PM
Maybe I'll make the perches 26" long in front and just bolt them to the spring hangers...

agjohn02
10-26-2005, 02:00 PM
a short antiwrap bar pushes up on the frame when you launch, extending the rear suspension and creating "antisquat," correct?


yeah. its just a lever. the longer it is the less it'll have to push up on the frame to keep the axle from wrapping

davido
10-26-2005, 02:02 PM
just make 10" long spring perches and a 8" long top plate. Bolt together and the problem is solved :gigem:


Would that not effect the flex of the springs? It could be an issue where the mount is cast into the housing also.

agjohn02
10-26-2005, 02:09 PM
Would that not effect the flex of the springs? It could be an issue where the mount is cast into the housing also.
pretty sure he was joking

CRaSHnBuRN
10-26-2005, 02:11 PM
yeah, that was a joke I think. As for the front springs, I may need to figure something out for myself. In the rockpile at gilmer this weekend I could actually watch the front wrap up

davido
10-26-2005, 02:23 PM
He may have been exagerating the measurements, but he wasn't joking about the method. That's pretty much what he recommended when I talked to him about it last week. What works for Eric's 4banger and 33s may not necessarily work for a SB350 and 42s. All I know is that I need something bad. I blew out another rear u-joint this weekend in Alto. Sucks. So when are we building Eric?

uglyota
10-26-2005, 02:40 PM
I just ordered my materials minus pipe. Pick up a heim, threaded insert, 3 bushings/sleeves, some 3/16 plate and some pipe and gimme a call :D
coleman racing = free shipping!

davido
10-26-2005, 02:58 PM
I think I pretty much have everything except for a little steel.

uglyota
10-27-2005, 08:49 PM
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/susp/axlewrap/
good down-to-earth explanations

chevsu
10-28-2005, 07:54 AM
i wish you guys would hurry up and figure this out so i can copy it and make it better. :flipoff2:

uglyota
10-28-2005, 12:30 PM
you aren't running antiwrap bars?

uglyota
11-17-2005, 04:36 PM
2 more good resources:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=7088.new#new
http://www.mindspring.com/~jayk3/toyota/rear_susp.htm
guess I better go ahead and actually do it now...

TxCruzr
11-17-2005, 05:24 PM
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413745

redcagepatrol
11-18-2005, 01:28 AM
you have to get much more weld area than what they were doing for a Toyota axle. I have seen many of these ripped out of the housing. The more surface area the better...

I thought I had a ton of area with my upper links but I still cracked the housing and had to fix it.

agjohn02
01-09-2006, 05:03 PM
heres the front bar on that red bent and twisted jeep. yeah, its not the best design, but how much do you really need on the front?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid131/p4c15ffbfc54138ee2d75b7f0965d13b2/f7a59844.jpg

CRaSHnBuRN
01-09-2006, 07:17 PM
you would be amazed how much a front can wrap up. I can literally watch mine doing it since the visibilaty is so good. In the case of the jeep, add in big tires, a big engine, and what looks like relatively thin, flexy springs, and I could definitely see the need for those.

davido
01-10-2006, 11:44 PM
Mine was enough to rip off my front mount (at the skid plate) then later to rip off the top tabs off the axle. Maybe not the best welding, but they were on there pretty solid and they got ripped smooth off. That design still gives a good amount of leverage and works well in tight spaces. For leverage, I still like the radius arm setup with the shackle.

BMFScout
12-05-2008, 02:08 PM
ok, going to try to get one whipped up tonight for my truck. I'm having a hard time envisioning a crossmember with the exhaust/driveshaft/etc. Think I could make a super cool birdhouse mount on the inside of the passenger frame rail with nothing over to the other side and make it survive? I could catch the top, bottom, and side of the frame for the frame mount. Ideas? The tranny crossmember is WAY too far forward on a scout to use for this.

85cj7
12-05-2008, 02:27 PM
cook did something really similar to what you are describing, see if you can find anything about it in his build up

85cj7
12-05-2008, 02:33 PM
this is the only pic i could find. . . http://www.tamor.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6650&page=22

J Cooper
12-05-2008, 02:37 PM
this is the only pic i could find. . . http://www.tamor.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6650&page=22

you mean this pic :flipoff2:

http://www.tamor.org/forums/showpost.php?p=129158&postcount=329

CheapJeep
12-05-2008, 03:10 PM
If you can't make a mount like Cook's work then you could do a side mount like you mentioned. Are scout frames boxed?

Just my idea but you could cut a piece of 2" square tube at an angle like I pictured below but without the cutout for heims. Weld it to the frame then cut 2 pieces of flat stock, one for a gusset to weld from the top/outside edge of the square tube to the frame. The other as a cap covering the back of the tube and gusset to the frame (kinda like a rectangle with a right triangle on top). That would give you a solid flat mount to hang a shackle from.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/blink05/cage164.jpg

sasquatch
12-05-2008, 03:18 PM
you mean this pic :flipoff2:

http://www.tamor.org/forums/showpost.php?p=129158&postcount=329

broke that one. don't make the bar like that. I used an existing cross member behind the cab. if you just make a mount off the side of the frame, i'd be wary of tweaking the frame with torque if its not boxed and thick. that mount on the 9 worked the chunk nuts loose regularly

J Cooper
12-05-2008, 03:30 PM
what broke?

sasquatch
12-05-2008, 03:32 PM
...

mudtoy67
12-05-2008, 03:36 PM
I've always kind of wondered if a Watt's link turned parallel to the frame would work for anti-wrap. Just build a truss on top of the pumpkin for your pivot, then you could run some somewhat short links to crossmembers just in front and just behind the axle.

Could work for situations where you need to fit in a more confined space...just throwin it out there.

BMFScout
12-05-2008, 03:36 PM
Scout frames are boxed and fairly thick. Fred had suggested putting a piece of pipe through the frame and tying that into my mount so that it couldn't tweak three sides of the frame, or rip it apart where it's welded together. I've got a pretty cool idea in my head, maybe I'll just make it and if it doesn't work we'll just hit the drawing boards again.

J Cooper
12-05-2008, 03:39 PM
should have done it more like this

RCcola55
12-05-2008, 04:30 PM
thats how it is now

AggieTJ2007
12-05-2008, 07:22 PM
I think that it would work just fine. I like the pipe idea through the frame, and add some internal stiffners to the mount to make it solid. I envision it like this

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f124/CreightonRea/jimmyframemount.jpg

DRAGOONRANCH
12-06-2008, 05:33 AM
and just keep it as close to the frame as possible.

davido
12-08-2008, 01:52 AM
I had the same experience as Cook. Mine snapped where the tubes met. But the new one meets at the back by the heim and works well. No snapping yet. It's very simple.

BMFScout
12-08-2008, 11:44 AM
After talking it over with St. John, decided to run a tube through the frame from one side to the other and attach it that way. He didn't think there would be a way to mount to just one framerail and not rip it off or twist something. Had to dimple the exhaust to get it ran, but it should be magnificent.

redcagepatrol
12-08-2008, 11:47 AM
but it should be magnificent.

:gigem:

BMFScout
12-16-2008, 11:07 AM
http://tamor.org/forums/showpost.php?p=213786&postcount=288

Beat the **** out of this design all weekend in Clayton. Lost front wheel drive, so I had to hammer on it a bunch with only 2wd. I wish I had made an anti-wrap bar 3 or 4 years ago when I bought the RE joint. It took all the hop out of the rearend. Another cool side effect is that it will now lay rubber in 2wd high with the brake applied, which I took full advantage of. If you are running an SOA with flat-ish springs and don't have one, get one.