Detroit vs. lunchbox locker

[Gearhead61]

Is there any advantage to running a detroit soflocker over purchasing a new carrier and sticking a lunchbox locker (aussielocker, lockrite, etc) in there? I think the detroit comes out to be like $200 more expensive. Are they really THAT good?

[RCcola55]

what are you putting a locker in? for stegnth yes the full replacement carrier is best, but it all depends on how hard you are gonna beat on it and what its going in. Personally i dont waste money on lockers, i just weld the **** out of my diffs, its virtually free, easy and depending on who welds it its strong; and if you break it you arent out any cash just reweld it!. For vehicle that rarelly sees the road (unless i feel like getting tickets that day) you cant beat it.

[BroncoJo]

For a sammy? a lunbox locker ought to be fine, I'm probly going to use one when/if I build my bronco II. I have my front 44 welded right now with chromoly shafts and only 35's and I brake something everytime I go out. Its also in a full size and my right foot gets heavy sometimes.

[Gearhead61]

It'll be for a sammy. I've got a D44 front (fullsize) that it will be going in. Ultimately I think I'll run ~37 or 38" tires. I thought about welding, but I've heard that REALLY kills your turning radius? I'll probably weld the rear though.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

weld the rear, lunchbox for the front. Keep the gears you have, and therefore skip changing carriers, and just regear the t-case really low. It would be much cheaper

[Gearhead61]

Well the rear gears are toast, so I'll have to get some new gears back there one way or the other. Might as well do the front while I'm at it. I was planning on 6.5:1 transfercase gears, which will also give me about 20% reduction in high range also. I just think that little 1.3L needs all the help it can get to turn the bigger tires. It'll be a little extra money, but the cost to regear the front/rear axles is about the same cost as regearing the tcase.

[RCcola55]

what do you plan on doing to the wheelbase on this thing, with fullwidths and 38's it is going to be much wider then it it long and look dumb. if it were me ide sell the d44 get some yota axles and 33-35's and lengthen it a bit and call it good, kinda like Jess'...http://tamor.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8060&page=7&pp=15

[Gearhead61]

The wheelbase will end up being around 100" when all is said and done.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

if the rear is bad, go ahead and move on to another type of axle. The 12 bolt is only a good deal if you left it stock. Otherwise its just a turd your polishing. And regearing can get expensive, especially when you factor in carriers and so forth (believe me, I wish I had stayed with the stock gears on the 4runner instead of 6.16s). Plus it makes finding replacements alot easier. The zuk t-case is cool because regearing it not only regears the low range, but the high range as well, therefore lessening the need for lower axle gears. Plus it seems like the sky is the limit as far as how low you can go with zuk stuff. Aren't there kits out there in excess of 7 to 1 gearing?

[CRaSHnBuRN]

what you should do is go buy that ford D60 that was mentioned in the for sale section, spin it around and run it in the back, and have 4 wheel steer :D

[Reckless]

I think there is an 8.**to 1 i think out there.

[Gearhead61]

Yeah they make up to 8.11:1 tcase gears now for zuk tcases. They're like 1000 bucks though. 6.5:1 kits can be had for $475 though, and that's what I'm planning on.

I won't have to change carriers for the 12 bolt though will I? I thought it was just the D44 that needed a different carrier? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to slap some new gears in the 12 bolt, weld it up, and run it than finding a new axle and putting it together? What else could I get for a decent price that'd have matching ratios with the front 44? I don't have much experience working with all this stuff, so I'm looking for simplicity right now I guess.

That D60 would be fun, but I don't have that kind of knowledge or money!

[CRaSHnBuRN]

I'm unsure on the 12 bolt, but most axles require a different carrier at some point when jumping to deeper gears.

[Gearhead61]

I haven't seen anything... I will keep looking.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

what gears are you planning for the axles?

[73bronco]

If your looking to get a different rear, I'd look into a 9inch. They're alot easier to work and and shold be plenty strong in stock form for that light of a rig.

[Gearhead61]

what gears are you planning for the axles?

Either 5.13 or 5.29/5.38 (can't remember which is available off the top of my head)

[DRAGOONRANCH]

I haven't seen anything... I will keep looking.

This is because the only wrenchin anybody does on a 12b is unbolting it from the springs. ;)

[eight]

Sidekick gears work in the sammy axles with some little spacers or such that don't cost much. I believe most sidekicks have 5.12 gears, that's what mine has.

I've never used a locker but I think in the future there will be a lockrite in my front 60. Never had a problem wheeling with the welded diff but I'm getting tired of messing with hubs. With the locker I'll just leave the flanges on all the time.

[Gearhead61]

Ba-zing!

Is the 12 bolt really THAT bad? I mean it's gotta survive under these beastly 5000lb trucks for atleast awhile!

[Gearhead61]

Sidekick gears work in the sammy axles with some little spacers or such that don't cost much. I believe most sidekicks have 5.12 gears, that's what mine has.

I've never used a locker but I think in the future there will be a lockrite in my front 60. Never had a problem wheeling with the welded diff but I'm getting tired of messing with hubs. With the locker I'll just leave the flanges on all the time.

I'm pretty sure all the manual transmission sidekicks have 5.12 gears. The front 3rd members will bolt into samurai axles no problem. I just don't see a whole lot of sense in spending money to build up these sammi axles because they're going to get replaced as soon as possible!

[CRaSHnBuRN]

yeah, they last about as long as it takes to step on the gas

[Gearhead61]

well hmph. Haha I've got faith in the 12 bolt as far as my samurai needs are concerned. A small motor with a small rig should let the 12 bolt hold up well enough. If it really gets to be a problem, then I'll find something new.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

then don't drop the cash on regearing it. its just polishing a turd

[DRAGOONRANCH]

yeah, i would not spend a dime on it, just run it till it give out.

[bcolman]

i you are going to get rid of the 12 bolt later why not do it now, go find a semi float 14 bolt, they can be found with a 6 lug setup to match your front 44.

[BIGJIMMY]

man the 12 bolt isnt that bad, i was at a mud race and most of the guys with high horsepower rigs were using 12 bolts. They said they never had any problems. With a light rig and not so much horsepower, I dont think you could break the axles. Thats just me though

[agjohn02]

i know a guy thats been running 800hp through a set of stock toyota axles in a mud bog chevy luv truck for years. mud bog racing proves nothing.

[BIGJIMMY]

I guess I havent broke an axle in my offroading days, and all i have is a 10 bolt with 35s, I just dont see a zuk breaking a 12 bolt

[CheapJeep]

I guess I'll chime in on this. I've said it before but the CheapJeep has an 8.8" rear notorious for their weak c-clips and a dana 44 front both welded with 4.56"s. I'm running 38"s with a dinky ass motor and haven't broken anything yet after several trips to Katemcy, Alto, and 47. You have a small underpowered motor as well so just weld it up and call it good if you aren't wanting to spend anymore money. Like Ed said, just run it until it gives out.

[Gearhead61]

What I'm trying to find out is this: aren't the D44 and 12 bolt comparable as far as strength? Why does everyone harp on the 12 bolt then and not the 44? Is it simply because of the c-clips?

And here's my thought on the gears. The rear R&P are missing some teeth, so they need new gears anyways. Nobody seems to have a problem with the front 44, so it's likely I'll be keeping that for quite some time. I might as well get matching lower gears for both axles, since I need new ones for the 12 bolt anyway, and the 44 will be around for awhile. Is the early-morning, been-studying-frantically delirium setting in, or does this make sense?

[KrazyKarl02]

As I understand it the Dana 44 and 10 bolt are equal. You can even take front shafts and swap them between 10 bolts and 44's. The 12 bolt is stronger, but the 14 bolt is stronger than that. 14 bolt is equal with a Dana 60, so I guess the 12 bolt is in the Dana 50 range.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

no, the rear 10 bolt is weaker then a 44 from what I have seen. My friend ran a 12 bolt in his chevy for a while. 350, SM465, 35 inch boggers. All the thing ever saw was the clay like mud we have here. He welded them up for traction, and killed three of them before just leaving them open, after which he killed 2 more. Ring and pinions busted, axle shafts busted, one c-clip let loose so the axle shaft pulled out, etc. Through this the welded front D44 never broke. Yeah, thats a fullsize truck, but if you gotta regear the 12 bolt anyway, why not get something better? A regear kit is what, 150-300 dollars? You can get a better replacement for 100 bucks or less. So why not?

[BroncoJo]

I'm not for sure which is stronger or weaker than a dana 44 but my buddy had a suburban with a old 350 with a few new mods and he blew up his rear end (it was a half ton with a 12 bolt I think) every three months with 36s and eventualy 38s and a auburn limited slip. It maybe went off road 3 times but he drove like a bat out of hell. eventualy he put a 12 bolt out of a ~2000 surban it did a little better but not much.

Another buddy had a 1966 chevy with a decent 350 and 37 in tsl radials and he rebuilt his 12 completly with a detroit locker. He did alot off offraoding mostly in the mud. He never had a problem.

For a sammy the 12 bolt is probly fine especialy with the sammy motor, It would have better clearnce then the 14 but I guess it depends on who you ask. I wouldn't drop alot of money in it, I sold the axles from the 66 for 400 dollars.

[Sharpe]

Allright kids pull up a chair.

I'm not familiar with 44s and different variations from different manufacturers but I do know my way around chevy axles.

12 bolts are ok, thats all you can say about them. They are comparable in strength to a later model 10 bolt which is comparable in strength to a dana 44. 12 bolts have a slightly larger ring gear than 10 bolts and maybe a wee bit bigger shafts, but their achilies' heel is their pinion, which is undersized for the rest of the axle.

"Later model" 10 bolts have a higher spline count and better shafts than their earlier versions, which makes them ultimately equal in strength to a 12 bolt (which GM stopped using in the late 70's). I believe they made the transition to "late model" 10 bolts in 87 or so. Dont bother trying to find a 10 bolt out of a 90's chevy truck to use, all the cool kids with Z71's on 35's that break them have driven the prices of a 6 lug 10 bolt of that vintage upwards of $700 in junkyards.

This 6 lug 14 bolt semi floater Brian speaks of would be a good choice, but I would hardly call them "easy" to find. I can count the number of trucks I've seen driving around with them on one hand and I have yet to see one in a junkyard. They came in 90's light duty 3/4 tons. The 14 bolt SF would probably be a little overkill for your sami though.

So in summary, unless you can find a late 80's 10 bolt, stick with the 12 for now.

Also, my vote goes towards lockers instead of welding, at leas in the front. Steering a truck with a locker in front in 4wd on the street blows ass. Sure you can unlock the hubs, but not if they are mangled from being dragged against the rocks at Katemcy.

[Reckless]

In a few months, I may have an axle out of a Z71 1/2 ill sell cheap.

[AggieTJ2007]

how about a 60, better ground clearance than a 14bolt, strong and rear 60's are easy to find

[Gearhead61]

no, the rear 10 bolt is weaker then a 44 from what I have seen. My friend ran a 12 bolt in his chevy for a while. 350, SM465, 35 inch boggers. All the thing ever saw was the clay like mud we have here. He welded them up for traction, and killed three of them before just leaving them open, after which he killed 2 more. Ring and pinions busted, axle shafts busted, one c-clip let loose so the axle shaft pulled out, etc. Through this the welded front D44 never broke. Yeah, thats a fullsize truck, but if you gotta regear the 12 bolt anyway, why not get something better? A regear kit is what, 150-300 dollars? You can get a better replacement for 100 bucks or less. So why not?

I think I remember new gears with install kit being right around $210 shipped, maybe a little less. If I was going to replace the 12 bolt, I'd be looking primarily for a D60 or 14 bolt, right? Can I really get one of those for $100? most I've seen I think have been in the $150-$200 I think. And they'd likely be 8 lug, right? So I'd have to get 8 lug outers for my D44. Then I'd have to go and get the axle (gas ain't cheap) and then regear the new axle too. When it all adds up, the cost isn't so marginal anymore I don't think. I hear what you're saying and it makes sense, but I think it's a risk I'll be willing to take.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

[jerryg79]

goto awesome in dallas and get any axle for $40 or something close...jimmy has the info

[BMFScout]

I think the truck ones are closer to $100 now, but last time I was there, there was still a cherokee 44 for $30. Car/suv axles are still $30.

[Gearhead61]

I think the truck ones are closer to $100 now, but last time I was there, there was still a cherokee 44 for $30. Car/suv axles are still $30.

Where's this place at? That's a hell of a deal. They sell engines?

[CRaSHnBuRN]

alot of the bigger yards in houston and dallas sell rear axles for 50 bucks. Some even do half off days. Or pick one up from a fellow wheeler. I got my D70 for 50 bucks.

Like you said, its $210 to regear that axle, but if you need a carrier, don't forget to add another 50-100 bucks. Then you got to think about the labor to set these gears if you can't do it yourself.

Yes, the D60/D70/14 bolt are 8 lug for the most part. This will require swapping outers on the front axle if you want to run the same wheels. The nice thing is once you're 8 lug, you can run hummer wheels with no mods. That gives you a double beadlock for dirt cheap. Prices for those are normally around 50 bucks a piece complete, and alot of times come with some crappy 36 inch goodyear tires that can be used for a while if money is really tight.

If you want to stay 6 lug, there are alot of good options out there as well

Waggy D44 - not as wide as your D44, but has an offset diff that works well with your T-case

Isuzu D44 - A little narrower than the waggy, but comes with disc brakes stock

Toy - either the 8 out of an older truck, or the 8.4 out of the tacos are good axles. Can be had with stock electric lockers in the taco versions, and they are a little wider

Isuzu 12 bolt - 2 versions, both beefier than a toy axle, but very similar. Several different widths available. Stock disc brakes. Early version is similar in size to a ford 9 inch, stock 4.56 gears, as well as some other options. Later version has D60 size R&P, 1.5 inch shafts, but only 4.30 gears

6 lug 14 bolt - hard to find, but exists

converted D60 - can be done with some machine work. Use the shops on campus

Ford 9 inch - gotta be converted as well, or swap your d44 outers for some 5 lug stuff

[CRaSHnBuRN]

I still think you'll be better off in the begining just using the stock gears and with lower t-case gears. What gearing is the D44? 4.10?

[DRAGOONRANCH]

I think that everybody is forgetting that one of his gear sets is toasted, as I did too.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

yeah, the rear R&P is gone, which is why I say ditch the 12 bolt. Why dump money into an inferior axle? If it was complete and in good shape, then run it as it is, but since its not there simply is no reason to keep it

[Gearhead61]

The R&P in the D44 is 3.73. I guess all I'm thinking about the 12 bolt is that I've got it, so I might as well run it, since I won't be able to sell it for anything. I may look around the yards in Dallas though and see if I can find something for a decent price.

How much should I expect to pay for 8-lug outers? Will only the ones off a D44 work?

How many lugs does an Isuzu 12 bolt have? And which vehicles could I find a fullsize axle under?

[CRaSHnBuRN]

all isuzus are 6 lug. I'll find the width info for you later

[AggieTJ2007]

it has been said on every page, got a 60, or some other axel

[CRaSHnBuRN]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449731
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399904
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=539429&page=2
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=504895

this is all related to the 12 bolt. I think this axle will increase in popularity if more people knew about the different versions of it. The reason I like this axle is that since no one knows about them, they are cheap, even free. Like I said, most versions are disk brake, and all are 6 lug. They have flanges that will make it easier to attach your sammi driveshaft. There are widths ranging from 58 to 63+ inches. And don't worry if you're front axle is a little wider than the rear axle, thats normal. The axle housing is alot like a toy, so it should be very easy to shave for more clearence.

The only drawback I know of is there isn't much aftermarket support. Your locker options are welded, ARB, or lockright for the older (smaller) version, and welded only for the late model (bigger) version. For the older version, 4.56 gears are normally stock, and there are 5.38s available, but may not be for long. For the newer version there is only 4.30 stock, with no aftermarket gears. I would grab the widest version of the older diff, and regear your D44 to match (4.56). BTW, the pics in link 2 show the older style diff in comparison with a toy diff (smaller of the two), so you can imagine how big the late model axle is.

edit: more info here http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232723

[stx4wheeler]

yeah but how plentiful are these axles to find

[Gearhead61]

I did some searching on carpart.com for the isuzu axle... Most of the ones I found in the area (either Houston or Dallas/Ft. Worth) were in the $150-$200 range. Which years of truck should I search for a Dana 60?

[CRaSHnBuRN]

yeah but how plentiful are these axles to find

I've seen several in the yards here. I mean basically every isuzu that is not a rodeo has one. That place out on 21 with all the foreign cars probably has several. I just missed getting a free one a few months back when greg grosz hauled one to the scrap yard.


And don't do the car-parts.com thing. They way overcharge everything. Go to a yard, make sure they have what you want, and then go haggle. So far everything I've stripped off an isuzu I ended up getting free

[redcagepatrol]

weld the rear, lunchbox for the front. Keep the gears you have, and therefore skip changing carriers, and just regear the t-case really low. It would be much cheaper
I used to like this idea but from experience, the welded rear pushes the front straight and that is what screws up the turngin radius. Put the locker in the rear and weld the front.

[agjohn02]

I used to like this idea but from experience, the welded rear pushes the front straight and that is what screws up the turngin radius. Put the locker in the rear and weld the front.


ive heard this a bunch and totally believe its possible, but ive never noticed it in the scout

[DRAGOONRANCH]

you have a boat anchor ontop of your front axle though that surely helps to keep traction on it. ;)

[CRaSHnBuRN]

I used to like this idea but from experience, the welded rear pushes the front straight and that is what screws up the turngin radius. Put the locker in the rear and weld the front.


My old truck had a detriot rear, welded front. My buggy had a spool rear, detriot front. I could barely make the truck turn on the rocks in katemcy, and it pushed like crazy. The buggy always turned fine, even before I installed the hydro assist. No real pushing that I noticed

[redcagepatrol]

I don't think that it was the welded front that made your old truck hard to turn, it was probably that you had to be on the gas while turning. Best was to turn with a Detroit in Moab or Katemcy is to bump the throttle to let it unlock the rear. The front tires will already be turned the way that you want them to go, they are not the cause of the problem.

[CRaSHnBuRN]

say what you will, but I never had the problem until I welded the front, and even on low traction surfaces when giving it gas, I couldn't get the thing to turn. I mean it was a fight with the steering wheel. I don't know how it would have been with hydro assist, but without it, it sucked

[CheapJeep]

I used to like this idea but from experience, the welded rear pushes the front straight and that is what screws up the turngin radius. Put the locker in the rear and weld the front.
I kind of noticed this in the Jeep at Katemcy back in February but really didn't give it much thought since I'd just stretched it. I had the front welded and a powertrax locker in the rear but when the locker started to disengage randomly due to missing pins Ryan and I just welded it up no problems since. It's pretty hard to say whether or not I can tell since I change things on the Jeep so much.

[AggieTJ2007]

I just use the twin sticks makes it turn real nice