Steering tech

See this on another forum just though i would pass it on.

Quote:
Allright Lance from Keller. I am trying to piece together a cheapo full hydraulic system for the rocks going in my junk. I have a saginaw style pump that I was told is a high volume pump that pushed an AGR box with a Rockram assist ram not very well. I am going to rockwells with a 2"x10" ram that I have already purchased and plan on using the radiator pipe resiviour. I am going to run 44" tsl''s. I guess my question is........ Do you have an orbital on the dent and clearance rack that would give me 3.5 to 4 turns that I would like. I am very green when it comes to full hydro but I do know I like it when I drove Tigger.


The first thing I'd do is trade that 2" cylinder for atleast a 2.5"

All day long I have this same conversation, and I know all of everyone's buddy's are using this set up and they work great. I hear it 100 times a day, from guys who have this set up and it sucks. "I have plenty of power, it works great, it wont turn left, but it's great"

This is not a sales pitch, I help guys all the time with ag cylinders, this is just the facts

The power of a cylinder is the pistons surface area x the pressure of the pump. area= 3.14(pie) x radius squared.
2/2=1 R=1, 3.14X1X1 =3.14 3.14x 1500psi +4710

So the power on the cylinder (just the piston end) is 4710. It can exert 4710lb which seams like alot but when you consider the scrub (amount the tire travels out side the fulcrum of the knuckle) which is longer than the length of the lever on the knuckle (steering arm) that number starts to reduce significantly.

Oh well you might say.

But heres the crapper, the retract power on the cylinder is the piston surface area MINUS the rod, so in your cylinder on the turn side that pushes the rod in, you have a 1/4 inch of piston leaving you with 3.14 x1 x1 =3.14 (area of the piston) minus 3.14 x .75 x.75 = 1.76625 which equals 1.37375 when multiplied times the pump pressure (1500psi for this experiment, but just so every one knows, stock pumps are usually closer to 1000psi) gives you a whopin 2060 lb of turning force. Just an fyi, thats less that even a crappy steering gear.

They make 2" bore cylinders with smaller rods than 1.5, but then the strength of the rod comes into play. Ag cylinders are pretty much made to just be used in one direction, so the mfg arn't concerned with the retract power of the cylinder.

When the pressure in the system gets beyond the force of the cylinder (your trying to turn to the weak side of the cylinder and it needs more than it can exert, which is alot when that half of your truck allready weighs more than the cylinder can produce) the pump shuts off in an attempt to save its self, the valve just locks down. No fluid in, which means your doing all the work with the orbital (its a little pump too that you provide the power to with your arms) this happens for more than about 2 seconds on a high volume pump and its empty, nothing to lubricate, nothing to get rid of heat, so that happens a few times or for a long time once, and the pumps gone.

Im sure this isn't what you want to hear since you allready have all this stuff. Run a standard volume pump if you have to run a small cylinder, they will live longer, but a properly sized cylinder will provide better performance.

Now if anyone is still awake, I can get you an orbital that will provide you with that ratio of steering, reguardless of what cylinder you have. Im assuming you have a single ended cylinder, any orb you get is going to give you about 1 more turn one direction that it does the other. With the cylinder you have now your lookin for a valve in the 7.6ci range. It will be about 3 turns one way and 4 the other.

LG

hmm... well im more green to this than you lmao, but craig had "from what i can tell" a similar set up on his yj if i remember right he was a ble to find a orbital off of ebay that was identical to the fancey ones they sell around but he was able to pick his up for 100.... and he is using a tractor ram also, i think he said he built his whole hydro set up for like 200 if you want i could give you his number, im sure he could make more since of it than me.... but he did do fulll hydro and is running 40's. you may remember him from clayton, he was the guy interested in you propane set up you had for sale back then.

You can do it on the cheap easy. You just need a non load reacting steering valve with a 5-9 cu in displacement and a 2.5" bore x usually 8" stroke cylinder. They typically have a 1.5" rod diameter, smaller would be better. This will work, be a little slow with the 5 cu in valve.

Mine will use a 6.1 cu in load reacting valve with a double ended 2.5x8x1.5 cylinder. Total cost should be under $700 by the time I get hoses and steering shaft.

Setting up High Steer on the klogger and was laying it out last night, and it just does not look right. I have a set of mad4x4 arms for a Kingpin Dana 60 (2 arms, one for passenger, one for driver). I can try to take some pictures tonight. I am planning on running heims, as TRE's suck.

Question 1) As I understand it, you measure your pitman arm from gear box shaft center to tie rod or heim center, in my case it is a little over 6". Then you measure that same distance from the pivot point of the arm out and drill a hole for the drag link. Any other sugestions on this process?

Question 2) Next you want your tie rod to be on the inside (towards the back of the vehicle) of the drag link (right?). This is done so attaching hydro assist is easier. When I measured where my drag link would be, it did not leave much room for the tie rod. It looked real close. Any advice? I could (and should) put a misalignement spacer on the draglink heim, this will get it a little out of the way, then just run the tie rod against the arm (it should not see much angle). I looked at Cook's (Dirty Sanchez) and the picture is below. They are pretty close together, anyone know if he has had any problems with his?

I was thinking something like this, but I needed a KAD to explain it. I know I'm going into depths on this, but just wanted to talk it out and see if anyone had any comments. So in my super complicated drawing step 1 would be to measure the distance of the pitman arm center to center. Let's say it is 6". Then figure out how many degrees the steering box swings, this can be done by turning the box all the way one direction with the pitman arm off and marking the key way. Then rotate the other direction, now measure the angle with a protractor between the 2. Lets say it is 90 degrees. So if I draw that out, I get a semicircle, to determine the distance the drag link moves it is basically a triangle with 2 sides being the length of the pitman arm (6"). I know the the angle at the steering box is 90, using geometry the 2 sides of the triangle are the same so the other angles will be equal, in this case 45 degrees. I can then use sin or cos to figure the length, so like sin 45 = 6/distance. 8.48" in this case.

Next go to either drivers or passenger side and measure the swing that is capable of the axle. Would you put the wheel on and see if you had clearance issues to limit the angle??? Lets say I go over and measure that with the wheel or the axle I can only swing 70 degrees. I know that the other angles will be 55 degrees (180=angle1 + angle 2 + 70, angle1=angle2). So I can say sin 55 = X/8.48", or x = 6.9" So in that case I would drill my hole 6.9" from the center of the center of the king pin.

Comments?

What are your thoughts on determining the max angle the knuckle can swing?
1) Put the tire on there? and set the steering up for that?
2) Set the steering up for what the axle can physically do with the steering knuckle stops cranked all the way down?

What are you guys thought on limiting steering?
1) Limit it by the steering gearbox which maximizes the force the box puts out, but also can transmit load into the steering gear box?
2) Limit it via steering knuckle stops? This puts the load into the axle?

How precise are you trying to be? I think your math will be a really good approximation for most cases, but another factor that might need consideration is how the pitman arm arc is orientated in relation to the knuckles arc, If it is like the picture you have given it shouldn't matter much.


Couldn't you just bolt the (or mock) drag link to the pitman arm, then clamp the other end to the knuckle to find out exactly how much it turns?

I could bolt it and clamp the high steer arm, then just adjust it. I had not found a super great way to do this on the internet, so I was opening the topic up for discussion.

Karl thats closer to the right way to do it.

I'd limit swing based on those u joint failure angle probability charts and use knuckle stops.

I know I've seen those charts somewhere, google the **** out of it and maybe it will show up again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KrazyKarl02

I could bolt it and clamp the high steer arm, then just adjust it. I had not found a super great way to do this on the internet, so I was opening the topic up for discussion.

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I like this idea. Wish I had thought of it.:flipoff2:

edit:Nevermind broncojo thought about it too.:laughing:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KrazyKarl02

I could bolt it and clamp the high steer arm, then just adjust it. I had not found a super great way to do this on the internet, so I was opening the topic up for discussion.

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This is the way I do it. Engineer may need a more complicated way to screw it up.

I use the box to limit travel, not sure how well this works with inferior suspension as the distance from pitman arm to steering arm changes too much with travel. Best choice may be to use the cylinder to limit.

Install the tire to check if it hits anything before the joint binds, often the case with inferior suspensions.

Steering Cylinders? I am planning on using a 1.5" bore, with 6 or 8" of travel, I have not measured for sure. PSC sells this thing for $180 or so.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/motors...-cylinder.html

Why would I not get this bad dude from Surplus Cylinder for half the price?, it comes with swivel ends, seems to be similar in dimensions?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic

Thoughts?