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Thread: For Scott and Cody

  1. #1
    TAMOR Obsession Chadnutz's Avatar
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    For Scott and Cody

    This isn't a Cummins vs Stroke thread so leave the gay comments out... We were talking about injectors so I'm just posting the information. Bold faced is what I want. Fortunately my clutch is relatively new.


    150/146/A 150 mm^3 The "Baby Swamps" are part of a chip and injector package designed to take a stock 94-97 from 175 to over 300 rwhp for under $1000. The first test truck dynoed 265 rwhp and the second 312 with off-the-shelf chips, and a third 353 with custom tuning. These injectors do not include new nozzles.
    (All these trucks needed new clutches or transmissions within 2 weeks!)

    $650 w/chip purchase

    $750 w/o chip purchase


    175/158/A 160 mm^3 A good choice for the owner who needs more power, but knows he doesn't want to get wild. The

    175/158 is a basic performance injector equivalent to, or slightly more powerful than what is often referred to as a Stage 2. It is intended for trucks with an upgraded air intake, 3" turbine outlet pipe, and a straight exhaust. Good for owners who tow heavy loads but don't want to worry about exhaust gas temperatures. Best performance for all injectors is always obtained with the appropriate chip. $1250

    175/173/A 160 mm^3 The 175/173 has the same internal modifications as the 175/158 but the larger nozzle makes it flow more fuel with the same injector pulse width. This makes it a bit more aggressive with better throttle response. It is fully equivalent to any Stage 2 injector. $1250

    225/173/B 225 mm^3 More highly modified internally, extensive porting and flow enhancements. The 225 series are some bad boys. They flow 225% more fuel than a stock injector, and 40% more than what's commonly called a Stage 2. In addition to the engine upgrades listed for the 175 series, a larger turbo such as Hypermax's Holset H2E, an electric fuel pump, a 99.5 model year or newer HPOP and a High-Voltage IDM are required. This injector can be installed in engines without these upgrades, but full injector performance will not be obtained. However, they can be installed first, and then the other upgrades done later as time and money permit. $1450

    F*ME 250/190 250 mm^3 Tired of hearing about the Mini-Me's? F* them with the F*ME's! $2150

    315/290/F 316 mm^3 The 250 and 300 series is for the professional drag racer and truck puller. They are not intended for use on street driven trucks. Twin turbos are not an option unless nitrous oxide is used. These use the 7.1 mm plunger and barrel from the IH 530 injector and the 16 mm PSD piston. The 315's and above require a custom high pressure oil pump. $2500

    395/290/G 395 mm^3 $3000

    490/290/H 490 mm^3 $3500

  2. #2
    sideways again... redcagepatrol's Avatar
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    125 horse injectors are big no matter what you say. You will lose gas miliage and it will be hard to keep your EGT's down - especially when pulling. You can't turn injectors off when pulling up a long hill in high elevations - you will just have to pull over to keep from melting down

    EDIT: Are you saying that they act like stock without a chip?
    Scott, FTAC '99
    '62 Nissan Patrol 4-seat Twisted Customs Buggy
    '89 "CJ-7" - Her trail rig
    '05 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 TRD - her daily driver...
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    scott.schubring@williams.com

    The office sucks - I wanna go wheeling!

  3. #3
    AgDieseler
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    Scott's right. The injectors will flow so much fuel that you'll see some high EGTs without even coming close to your legal combined weight. This comes from not having enough oxygen to burn the fuel pulse.

    Not having some form of intercooling (air to air, air to water, water mist injection) doesn't help the situation. You're running 17-20 psi of boost, and your compressor is spinning fast enough to heat the intake air to around 250-300*F. There's a lot of air there, but not enough oxygen.

    A better performance value would come from a chip, an intercooler, and boost control (20-25 psi). Injectors are part of a balanced performance equation, and will work best later once you're burning all the fuel you have right now.

  4. #4
    TAMOR Obsession Chadnutz's Avatar
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    The injectors I want are 150 mm^3, otherwise known as "Baby Swamps"

    In response to this:

    "I was talking to some guys in my off road club about me getting some injectors. They kept saying that my driveability would be decreased, my fuel mileage would drop significantly - not because of a lead foot, and that my EGTs would be too high to tow anymore. I have seen countless threads on here about mileage and EGTs, etc, but when I search for "swamp" I don't find much at all. I apologize for asking questions I already know, but I need sources (as in quoting people that actually have them" rather than quoting threads I have read before but can't find anymore....

    So... All power aside...

    How are the EGTs?
    Does the stock mode of a chip negate the benefit of babies? <-- most important!
    Could I tow up to 20k with babies installed and no intercooler?
    How is mileage without the lead foot?

    As far as truck specifics go - the only mods I have are in my signature.

    Thanks!"

    They posted this:

    http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...=1#Post1738801

    Those guys don't know. I pulled my trailer this weekend - 10000# box and touched 1250 once going up a long grade at 75 maintained speed , no intercooler. The key is to have a good flip chip. Swamp or twildman can help with that. All I can say is gettum, you won't be sorry....Forgot to add, my milege is better empty and the same loaded.
    I dont know about 20k havent had to pull that big of a load yet but i have pulled some big loads (tn mule) and didnt have any probrlems. Unlike some of the older staged injectros it is a little easier to control egts with the baby swamps because of the stock nozzels. Like jon said get you a good multi position chip that you can control. I have noted that with the baby swamps in 50-75 hp TRS program i have more power then needed to go up the hill and find my self backing out of the throttle instead of getting into it therfore egts are not a probrlem. Ignore those guys and go drag thier trucks home for em when they break. Travis
    This depends greatly on wich injecors you go with. If you go with the Babys without a chip you will be pretty much the same as stock. Same egt, power, driveability etc. With a chip you get get a very nice increase in hp. Your egts will go up quite a bit DEPENDING ON PROGRAMMING. You fuel mileage will stay pretty close to the same if you drive it nice but will go down if you rod on it. Driveability will stay pretty much the same also depending on programming. Now if you start getting into the bigger injectors with bigger nozzles then you might start to see some driveability issues and excessive black smoke all the tiem and high EGTs as they describe. It just depends on the injectors you go with and what your ultimate goals are.

    You should be able to pull 20K with the babys without an intercooler but you wouldn't want to do it in a high hp setting. You would want a heavy tow program to use with it to do that. Hope this helps you out!
    I am running the 175's and 4 position chip. I can hit 1300 but that is with the chip on #3 and 4 and driving like a nut! With the mods you have you will be fine with the Baby's and a multi position chip.
    Just do it! Then the group of off roaders you talk to will ask where you got them (once they catch up to you)!
    Rick H.......Michael,
    After reading this post again, I relized who you were!
    I'll tell ya what, I will be in C.S. sometime in late June or early July, we can hook up and hook my truck to what ever you want and you try it for yourself! Of course that is if you can wait that long! If not, we'll just hook up and have a burger or something. Folks live outside of town just past the airport.
    Rick H...
    1st set of baby's and a gcw of anywhere from 28k-36k, every Saturday night, Arbuckle mountain 75 miles an hour, egts comfortably at 1350 or so, passing cars without looking back.

    Michael, if you really wanna know about towing with them, come up to the North Texas rally at the end of the month, I will bring an 18ft car hauler with me and we can load someones truck on it and go for a ride, then you will know for sure about them.
    I have the 225's single shot, but i also have an intercooler. My fuel milage went up by about 2 mpg empty, and stayed the same loaded. EGT's are the same in a 40hp tow setting that they were in a 60hp tow setting with stock injectors, but in the 40hp setting it puts down about 310hp. I would not be afraid to tow anything i could hook to in that setting (except for fear of breaking drive line components ) As for smoke, 40hp setting stock ammount of smoke, but in the 140 settings, it depends, if you lug it it pours smoke, but if the RPM's are up just a light haze up to about 3/4 throttle, then it is just black no matter what. you can tow in the high setting, but you really have to watch EGT's.

    I would not reccomend getting the 225's though, high pressure oil is a huge limiting factor right now, it is what is holding me at 350hp, i would go with 200cc's or less with the 99.5-newer HPOP.

    JMHO

    Scott
    Roger that Brian, The Babies were the best investment that I have made for my Ford. Now, I am not even wishing that I had bought a Cummins powered truck. If I want more power , I just turn the flip switch. As with any Modified system , you need the gauges to monitor things. These are things that I am sure you already know. There some dealers that will try and "talk you into " using their product, as it is better. All I can say dealing with SWAMP and his crew is a pleasure. Give Dixie @ Swamps a call, you will NOT be disappointed. ------JUST MY .02 worth -------- Joe
    Last edited by Chadnutz; 04-05-2004 at 04:33 PM.

  5. #5
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    So why you wanting these injectors that you need a chip for anyway? If you're having problems pulling the mazda just get a chip, or some injectors that will actually do something without a chip. You can get a nice little power gain with a superchip programmer for under $300 off ebay. With 4.10 gears that truck's never gonna be a racer.
    Last edited by eight; 04-05-2004 at 05:44 PM.

  6. #6
    sideways again... redcagepatrol's Avatar
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    it's the "wonder chip/injectors" kind of like "wonder drug" that we have all been waiting for.

    You add 150 hp (by adding more fuel) yet your EGT's don't go up, your mileage gets better, no smoke, and you no longer need a Cummin's. Does it make your penis bigger too?

    Are there ANY side-effects? (aside from the power)

    Did the engine suddenly get more efficient? Did the combustion charistics (sp) change? How do you add fuel, increase the firing temp and peak pressures without getting worse mileage / EGT's? I guess these guys just bought bigger tires and a new turbo at the same time or something.
    Scott, FTAC '99
    '62 Nissan Patrol 4-seat Twisted Customs Buggy
    '89 "CJ-7" - Her trail rig
    '05 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 TRD - her daily driver...
    '08 Dodge 2500 Mega Cab 6.7 Diesel 4x4
    scott.schubring@williams.com

    The office sucks - I wanna go wheeling!

  7. #7
    TAMOR Obsession Chadnutz's Avatar
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    I'm sure the mileage comes from the chip more than the injectors. If you don't lay into it your mileage won't go down because you're not putting much more fuel into it than stock. They have the abilty to flow more fuel, but that doesn't mean that they always flow more fuel. They do smoke, but not like a freight train.

  8. #8
    stinger7401
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    So burbach has the tst 9 stage box and 100 horse injectors, we just towded his trailer (empty, prolly 3-4000 lbs.) to montana and loaded the 49 chevy (prolly an extra 4g's) on it. For a lot of the trip we talked about cars, upgrades, swaps, etc and decided that most diesel owners are full of themseleves, for the most part, Im sorry but your not gonna get better than 12-14 mpg at the most and thats pushin it with a good load. We most definately had to watch his egt's with the box off. We couldnt even turn the box on because even with the empty trailer and the box on level setting 1 his clutch would slip under normal driving conditions. On one hill i think we were trying to catch up to some girls or somethin and he hit it hard, this was empty, we were doin like 80-85 and his egt cutoff hit at like 1380, this was only for a few seconds but they rose really fast and fell evem faster. Oh and his gas milage has gone down, common sense, bigger holes in the tips means more fuel, more fuel means less economy on startouts and hotter egts. Dont take my word or quote me, im not some guru at this stuff im just speakin from first hand knowledge

  9. #9
    AgDieseler
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    Originally posted by stinger7401
    ...Oh and his gas milage has gone down, common sense, bigger holes in the tips means more fuel, more fuel means less economy on startouts and hotter egts. Dont take my word or quote me, im not some guru at this stuff im just speakin from first hand knowledge
    Maybe you're not a diesel guru, but you've hit this nail on the head. The injectors are set to pop at a certain pressure. For ditributor injection pumps like the DB2 and DS4 this is around 3000 to 4000 psi per injector. This is one thing that doesn't change much. Your pop pressure will remain the same +/- 200 psi depending on what the calibration standard is.

    With pressure being a function of area, you will have to fill the larger bore hole with more fuel to achieve the same pop pressure. This is great if you're going for the all mighty horsepower figure, but less attractive for mpg considerations.

    Thermal efficiency is part of makes a diesel so cool. Spark engines get around 15-20% with diesels getting around 25-30%. High EGTs are a sign of thermal INefficiency, and low mpg will follow. There's lot of power to be made by burning the fuel you have right now, and the extra fuel that a chip will get you.

    Your truck already tows and performs well, but if you must have more power, then consider an intercooler after these three easy steps.

    #1 - get gauges
    #2 - get a chip
    #3 - stop spending money

    Last edited by AgDieseler; 04-05-2004 at 07:17 PM.

  10. #10
    TAMOR Obsession Chadnutz's Avatar
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    The babies don't have larger nozzles. I'm not sure what makes them flow more than stock...

  11. #11
    Fresh Cope, It Satisfies! StevenAg03's Avatar
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    dont yall know by now that there is no point in arguing with chadnutz on the internet....or better yet, why do you post this stuff....everytime some one disagrees with you you post what guys on TDR say....if you believe them as you do, then why argue....noone is gonna change his mind....
    Steven W
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    "....Your theory is f*cked up like a football bat...."

  12. #12
    TAMOR Obsession Chadnutz's Avatar
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    Sigh... my point is that the injectors are able to flow more fuel, not that they DO flow more fuel all the time. The motor is made more efficient at the cost of some pollution. The chip just allows for more fuel when it is needed....

  13. #13
    chevsu
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    i want to make my truck smoke like this. if you can do that then you have something.

    i think that train has stage 2 injectors and maybe a chip with a turbo upgrade
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #14
    ^TAMOR NORTH^ Graystroke's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chevsu
    i want to make my truck smoke like this. if you can do that then you have something.

    i think that train has stage 2 injectors and maybe a chip with a turbo upgrade
    don't forget the high flow canooter valve and the double ball-bearing flux capacitor!

  15. #15
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    Yep, I think Nick is right. Alot of the diesel guys on the internet are full of ****. And some of them have alot of money, and convince themselves that every mod made is worth more than the cost, cause they can pull their boat up a hill faster. But the whole thing is stupid, there's no need for more than 500 lbs of torque, but there are those on the interent that will tell you otherwise.

    Oh, I modded myself.
    Last edited by eight; 04-05-2004 at 11:34 PM.

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