Anti-Wrap Front and Rear

[davido]

First off, there's no ****ing way I'm going to switch my springs and mounts back to shackle in the front. That's definitely out.

4 link front would be a possibility, but I'm not ready to do that anytime soon. I need something in place before Clayton... probably even Superlift. But, this would also solve my turning radius issues (where the tire is hitting the outboarded springs). This would have to come later.

I could add longer shackles but I'm not really concerned about the flex. I'm not running competitions with it and I've yet to see a circumstance where more flex would have solved the problem. Maybe once I resolve this traction issue, that will be more aparent.

Kopecki - That's actually a really good question. I assumed that since it worked the way it did in the rear that it would have to be reversed to work like that in the front (with a shackle reversal). That may not be the case at all. But after thinking about it more, that should probably work fine. And in my case I think it would be much easier.

[TxCruzr]

Yes, he's all about KISS which I like. The one you posted is sans shackle reversal. Great design. Pretty much what I'm thiking for the rear, but unfortuntately mine would have to go forward from the axle and I haven't yet found a convenient mounting point or shackle position (more details in original post).

High5's rig does have a SR. I'll try to see if I can find a better discription.

[eight]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332171

I'm not sure you have room to put it on top of the spring, but you could build a tower on the side. I've seen kits for this type in JCWhitney and the like. It's what I was planning on doing way back years ago when I did my first spring over, but didn't have wrap problems so didn't do it.

[Cajun]

I don't see why an antiwrap bar like mine wouldn't work up front with a shackle reversal, even if it ran "forward" with the frame mount near the t-case. Since my bar (Sam's Offroad style) uses a shackle at the frame end, wouldn't the frame end of the bar "float" relative to the shackle end of the spring?

As for effect on pinion angle, the closer the bar is mounted to the center of the axle, the less it will droop or compress, thus minimizing effect on pinion angle as the axle articulates.

I think.

[uglyota]

that looks like an excellent way to kink springs. Same as the cable method and feller's antiwraps. for some reason his work, but I think it's cuz he crawls and doesn't ascribe to the pogo method.
Those bars essentially work as upper links and use the front of your spring as the lower, and springs are not meant to take compression forces. The ladder bar with shackle design works well because it works independent of the suspension, but it's still basically a half-assed link suspension. I say link it.

[eight]

So eric, where did you learn that?

And Feller's are below the springs, so they take all the compressive force, springs got it in the other way.

[davido]

[QUOTE=Cajun]I don't see why an antiwrap bar like mine wouldn't work up front with a shackle reversal, even if it ran "forward" with the frame mount near the t-case. Since my bar (Sam's Offroad style) uses a shackle at the frame end, wouldn't the frame end of the bar "float" relative to the shackle end of the spring?[QUOTE]

After thinking about this more, it seems like it would limit droop. If the swing point of the axle is the front w/ SR, then the rear of the axle needs to be able to swing up and down in an arch in relation to it. The axle swings forward as it move up or down from the middle. While maybe not probable, it seems possible that with a bar hard mounted to the back of the axle, and pointing toward the skid plate, it could actually pull the arm forward to the point where the shackle of the arm could invert (up or down) under load (forward or reverse). With the axle is moving away from the shackle hard mount point, it stretches the shackle towards being parrallel with the bar/ladder. The reason I think it would limit droop is because the bar/ladder is is going to stay in the same position in reference to where the springs are mounted to the axle. It's trying to swing from the front (up and down) but the bar is limiting it up and down because it's fixed to the axle and limited by the shackle.

Does that make sense?

[uglyota]

So eric, where did you learn that?

And Feller's are below the springs, so they take all the compressive force, springs got it in the other way.

learn what?
now Fellers makes sense...I forgot the bars were below the springs

dave I'm having a hard time following your description, but I think that an antiwrap bar on the shackle side of your axle would need more range of motion than the shackle can give it. It works on the spring hanger side of the axle because it only has to deal with the swing and a little bit of to-fro movement caused by the spring center-eye length effectively shortening as it arches. On the shackle side it gets a lot more to/fro
maybe if the shackle on the antiwrap bar approximated the mounting position and length of your spring shackle...

[davido]

Is Feller's SUA or SOA? Do I need to be worried about not having a truss on these axles? (If only one side is going to have the anti-wrap bar, does it increase the likeliness of twisting a tube?)

[uglyota]

his is soa
that seems to make sense, but do 14bolts have problems with twisting tubes?

[CRaSHnBuRN]

since everyone is discussing my rear bars, I'll post these for you to see. This is what the rear looked like when I got it. I've since straightened out and resleeved the links. Basically its 2 links going from the frame a few inches in front of and below the front spring hanger, down to the axle. Both ends use hiems. Supposedly this desing is not supposed to work, since it should cause binding, but I guess they're in phase with the springs and therefore work very well. I have no axlewrap in the rear, good flex, and as an added bonus the bars act as ramps that help me to slide over obstacles and protects the rear driveshaft.

from underneath



from the side



a flex pic



[img]

[Graystroke]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332171

I'm not sure you have room to put it on top of the spring, but you could build a tower on the side. I've seen kits for this type in JCWhitney and the like. It's what I was planning on doing way back years ago when I did my first spring over, but didn't have wrap problems so didn't do it.

w/ all that jazz, might as well throw some coils under there while you're at it.

[agjohn02]

First off, there's no ****ing way I'm going to switch my springs and mounts back to shackle in the front. That's definitely out.

the only reason i suggest this is because it is quickest and easiest

I could add longer shackles but I'm not really concerned about the flex. I'm not running competitions with it and I've yet to see a circumstance where more flex would have solved the problem. Maybe once I resolve this traction issue, that will be more aparent.

one rear tire in the air + open front carrier = 2wd

longer shackle = more flex= back to three wheel drive

Kopecki - That's actually a really good question. I assumed that since it worked the way it did in the rear that it would have to be reversed to work like that in the front (with a shackle reversal). That may not be the case at all. But after thinking about it more, that should probably work fine. And in my case I think it would be much easier.

the reason i assume it wont work with reverse shackle is the spring pivots in the front and will cause the anti-wrap to bind during droop and compression. basically, by putting an anti-wrap on the same side as the shackle, you're introducing an "infinitely" stiff spring, basically eliminating half the leaf spring.

[agjohn02]

that looks like an excellent way to kink springs. Same as the cable method and feller's antiwraps. for some reason his work, but I think it's cuz he crawls and doesn't ascribe to the pogo method.
Those bars essentially work as upper links and use the front of your spring as the lower, and springs are not meant to take compression forces. The ladder bar with shackle design works well because it works independent of the suspension, but it's still basically a half-assed link suspension. I say link it.

oooohh, the hippie's got some engineer in him. i agree.

and by "use the front of your spring as the lower" you mean the front main leaf, not the whole pack

[agjohn02]

w/ all that jazz, might as well throw some coils under there while you're at it.

yeah. it is a six link after all. might as well cut the rear half of the spring pack off and go slinky.