doesn't look boxed to me
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doesn't look boxed to me
Coil mounts aren't done, just a piece of 3/8s strap bolted in for nowQuote:
Originally Posted by RCcola55
and the frame is not boxed
Oh...I see these mounts working out well.Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoJo
Thanks for the concern, Fred. Despite your expert opinion I think they will be fine. You may be right, I might wallow out 12 holes of 1/2" thick steel, but again.... i'm not concerned.
but yeah, great constructive criticism, thanks for telling me how to improve my design and looking through all of the possibilities. I know that you have crawled under my truck and looked at all of the things, like fuel pumps and existing cross members that may hinder boxing the frame or increase the strength of the overall design.
I really appreciate the time and thought that went into your comment, and that you took the time to be concerned for my safety and well being.
I know that your comment was not to be the first one to insult someones work because the mood was too positive because, well, you're just not that kind of guy I don't think.
I'll see you on the trail like I always do because your such an active, and frankly important member of Tamor who always likes to help people out and make them glad to be in the club.
I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for your service to the club. You are always at the events teaching new guys how to wheel and how to safely repair and modify their rigs, and you are always so warm and welcoming to the new members. Without you, Fred Brune, I don't know if Tamor would still be alive today.
Is summer school getting to you tommy? :flipoff2:
Could the frame break somewhere around the mount? Sure
But after having done a set of James duff arms before and seeing them last fine for the last 4 years I doubt tommy will have much problem.
Reasons for not boxing the frame:
Save time and money of doing it right
In nearly every Ford frame I've seen boxed, and no cage, it ends up cracked on the edge where the boxing ends or begins. C channel frame like these are designed to have a certain amount of flex and by strengthening adds stress to the adjacent areas.
Reason for no crossmember:
Time, money, added hang down
Is this axle swap koh worthy? Not yet :flipoff2:
...and there it is. My work here is done.
Really Tommy, I know Ryno mentioned a crossmember earlier in this thread. It's a good idea when you have a stamped frame rail. I don't think you're going to "wallow out 12 holes", but you might rip the side of the frame right out.
Also, I don't think you and I have wheeled together, but you're obviously absolutely right, I'm an asshole. I don't help people at all.
The reason we didn't do any of those things is because the drivers side is cluttered with wires, brake and fuel lines, fuel pump and filter, 205 support foot, and the transfer case crossmember. I barely had enough room for a washer, lock washer and nut.
Down the road i'll be doing a 205/1356 doubler and will build a whole new crossmember then. When I do that i'll tie the r/a mounts into it.
You need to watch what you say to people tommy. There are many on here, just as with any other site, that mean well but just come across in a manor that will make a thin skinned person butthurt, for example me or fred. For someone that just learned to weld and has a history of makin dumbass mistakes working on their vehicle, you might want to step back and take some advice from others. Even though all the young guys in this club, including myself at times, have the idea that all the old tamorites are the ones running off the newbs, they are still the ones with the experience and knowledge to help this dying club keep its head above water.
As for boxing the frame or building a crossmember, ya it might be a little more work and tough to work around all the **** in there, but overcoming those issue is what being a good fabricator/builder is all about. Just as I told you before, take the time and do it right the first time or you are going to get pissed when **** goes wrong on something that could have been prevented. How hard would it really be to make a bend quick crossmember or make one out of square? The factory had one, but I guess the designers were dumb and dont know how to make a vehicle last 30+ with a monkey driving it.
Karl and I have both had to straighten/repair bent frames at the radius arm mount. You're bracket is plenty beefy, but that doesn't mean squat if the material it's bolted to is 35 years old and abused. Granted, a ttb probably puts more side load on the radius arm bracket than a straight axle with panhard, it's still a good idea to box the frame.
And we all know Fred's an asshole. Only reason he's here is he's the Major's cousin.:laughing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCcola55
Maybe the people that mean well should watch what they say too... just saying
but lets try this again, and I guess my last post got lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoJo
Who has experience with the RA mount breaking the frame? where did it break at? why did it break?
In my experience with extended RAs on fords this set-up has worked fine for many years and boxing the frame has normally lead to a much worse result. Also when I was researching both James Duff and Cage recommended not boxing the frame and said that a cross member was unnecessary, in fact the Duff arm mounts are made for the early bronco boxed frame and their instructions were to cut off the inside ear and bolt up.
My rear leaf spring mount is not boxed. No probelms. I had TTB extended arms for many years. Also, no problems.
The bracket is fine, just keep an eye on the frame. I will scrounge around and see if I have any pics of my frame crack.
Ps Fred - I miss you. You complete me.
Attachment 18688Attachment 18689Attachment 18690Attachment 18692Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth
I broke the frame on my bronco 5 times before I finally boxed it. I am not saying yours will but it made a difference once I did.
1980 Bronco frames were known to have alot of issues right?
Travis, I do not see why a boxed frame would weaker. It would probably not be a bad idea, but I do not think it is totally necessary. We shall see.
From everything I have heard second hand about Tommy's driving style... I would want that **** as plated, boxed, and reinforced as I could get it!
He has been wheeling a fullsize rigs on little axles with bro-tires. He hasn't really wheeled hard because he hasnt been able too.
Am I defending Tommy?:eek:
What I'm saying is that I would not feel comfortable boxing the frame unless we did the whole frame and new cross-members or cage. And it would never get done being that we only get to work on this thing maybe 1 day a week.
The klogger's frame rolled in where the drop down radius arm bracket was almost hitting the driveshaft. I did not box the frame. I hooked my winch to it with a snatch block and straightened it out. Then I took a piece of 2.5" square quarter wall tube. With the frame still being slipped apart I put the piece of tube in between the 2 radius arm mounts. Again this was with TTB, and like BDR said TTB probably puts more load on an axle especially with drop radius arm mounts.
Frick made a giant box like structure for his frame, you might ask his opinion, but I doubt you will since you have a **** attitude.
Yeah I asked frick about it yesterday.
If it breaks it breaks, ill weld it back up and build it stronger.
Why build it once when you can break **** and spend more time and money on it later, right?
If it breaks at a shop that might not be such a bad plan but if it breaks, it will be on the trail. You do not have the means to fix a broken frame on the trail and judging by the way you handled your front axle coming apart at Soggy Bottom and your tierod getting Fubar'd at K2, I'd say minimizing the chance of trail breakage would be a prudent decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by TdmayfieldIV
I thought that was the point of off-roading: build something as best you can then drive the hell out of it until it breaks and then build it stronger?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredo
Even KOH rigs and trophy trucks break ****, if your worried about something breaking you have the wrong ****ing hobby.
or better yet why don't some people with experience or know-how offer some solutions of how to plate the frame or add some bracing?
Saying "fukkit" and not adding a crossmember or any bracing is not building it the best you can. Sure random **** breaks and we all know that but when something fails after three people have pointed out the problem and offered suggestions to fix it, and you chose to not do anything about it, that just makes you look like a 'tard.
Saying "more bracing" is a piss poor suggestion and I don't think anybody here, so far at least, is doing what Tommy is doing. What Tommy and I have done is to take a proven design (cage and james duff) and made it bigger so it can grab more of the frame. I have yet to see anybody offer any evidence that this design is prone to failure, but if it does or even looks like it might more bracing can be added down the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpe
IMO I think we greatly improved the design of the RA mounts over what James Duff did.
Now Will did have a transmission cross member right behind the RA mounts, but is was not connected in any way. And another thing I have been wondering about is how much side-to-side load will the heim transfer to the frame? seems like most load would be in-line with the frame, especially that the RAs are nearly perpendicular to the frame rails.Quote:
Originally Posted by william_ace
This has gotta be one of the dumbest things I have read in a while, and you aren't a dumb person Travis, I know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoJo
I am worried about something breaking and I have two ****ing rigs, in case one breaks I have a backup. Laugh all you want but that is what it has come to. I want my **** built right the the FIRST time so I don't have to do a trail fix in the hot sun. Tacoma's have a proven history of bending frames so my frame is plated Front and Rear. I know it is no SUPER DUPER Bronco but the force seen via leaf springs on a much lighter Tacoma in my opinion is not near as detrimental as the force provided by radius arm straight back into a frame.
The idea of oh I don't want to do that now bit me in the ass just in March. I didn't replace both of my front birfields with Longfields when I broke my first and the other one lasted 11 months before it blew in March and I had to spend three hours on the trail cleaning out a bell and manipulating a new shaft in getting dirty and nasty. Had I done it right when I had the chance and opportunity I wouldn't have been in that spot. Do it right the first time.
NOW, ya'lls current way may be the right way I honestly don't know, I just had problems with this way of thinking.
How are those wheel studs working out for you?:flipoff2:Quote:
I want my **** built right the the FIRST time so I don't have to do a trail fix in the hot sun
Really? that is the dumbest thing you have read in a while? I've spent some time talking to a lot of big time fabricators and that is what it all boils down to. I was trying to get a 6 inch kit for a dodge from Sage Carli but he wasn't ready to start selling them and they have spent the last 2 years building, testing, breaking and rebuilding... and it's a radius arm coil spring suspension too.Quote:
Originally Posted by FJAggie07
We did our homework, built something we think will work and now we want to test it.
EXACTLY MY POINT! You do break **** on the trail but you want it done right the first time! You don't plan going into it that you are going to break, you plan as best you can to make sure nothing breaks!Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
BTW the wheel studs were a ****ing fluke. Put a tampon in your tranny already damnt! :flipoff2:
Travis, like I said if you read to the bottom, I don't know if ya'lls game plan is flawed, I merely disagreed with your statement of "I thought that was the point of off-roading: build something as best you can then drive the hell out of it until it breaks and then build it stronger?". The way ya'll are building could be right, but if you can build it stronger from the start I would highly recommend it. Since people are saying it could be stronger if built XXXX way, then I would probably heed their advice. Me personally I want to build it as STRONG as possible right out of the box, because I have had to fix on the trail MULTIPLE times because it wasn't strong enough the first time. Just experience coming out only...Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoJo
I did read the bottom, I guess our summary (probably a better word choice out there) of off-roading is different. Even the new version of the XXX traction draglink kit, that we are using, came about after Toby Lavender built something he thought would work, then saw that it wasn't and improved it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FJAggie07
The discussion that I have been trying to start several times in this thread is that I don't know of a way to strengthen the frame without an extensive amount of work and costs. From my experience you cannot just plate a small portion of the frame. What you end up with is a rigid section in the middle and flexy ends, this is very prone to cracking where the plating stopped. If you plate the whole frame without redesigning the cross members or adding a cage the cross members will be prone to cracking.
A cross member could help distribute load, maybe, but you would not want it too rigid and I just feel that for now it is unnecessary and we could focus our efforts elsewhere.
thummas, go make.
Attachment 18693
flat part of frame could bend upward without.
fuel and brake lines can go behind or over. notch inward section for clearance if necessary.
Thanks Flem. First constructive comment in 2 pages. That may be a good alternative
Than wouldn't that would put all the rotational force on top bend? Also the bracket has extra bracing built in to help prevent the bottom flat piece bending up.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertf03
and what Tommy said
I don't follow you on the top bend rotation thing, as for the extra bracing I'm just going by what I see here http://www.tamor.org/forums/showthre...l=1#post278348
You can see the small bracing tab that welded to the tabs the hiem bolts to... I'm sure that is clear as mud too. in order for the bottom to bend up the large piece of 1/4 inch plate would be the weak part.
Originally cage defected from James diff and started knocking off there arms and offered a backer plate that went inside the frame and was basically a small piece of angle. They said it was to prevent the bolt holes from wallering out and being that are bracket is twice the size with more bolts I didn't think we would have much problem
My phone completely screwed that last reply up, my bad.
I saw that tab, I still believe the brace is necessary.
Maybe these pictures can better explain my thinking:
By adding the brace the only weak spot will be the frame in-between the upper bolt holes and the top bend in the frame.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...o/braceone.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...oJo/brace2.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...racepaint1.png
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...racepaint2.jpg